Should we start a campaign for sub-titling US films?

[Richard Tarleton]

Serpico (1973) with Al Pacino.

...who studied under the doyen of method acting, Lee Strasberg

[handsomefortune]

there's no need to understand apparently! you're all just being pernickety (it's ALL about looks, see)

imv 'serpico' is a good 70s film, if a bit distressing! i agree that it's the method acting that did for clarity, which was/is deemed 'unreal human behaviour' ...apparently. perhaps the west has gone a bit too far in illustrating this point though? though i note that US film romance doesn't suffer 'the mumbles' as much - yet we all know the typical plot, and no one points the 'unreal' finger.....(possibly just the lame duck thumbs down, having understood every word only too well)?

i have just watched a contemporary independent film, 'i'm still here', where the same point about being understood being perceived 'superfluous' is made. it's a documentary written, featuring and co directed by hollywood 'ancient' joaquin phoenix, (aged...late 30s yrs). the only part of the title song 'i'm still here' that is audible, and understandable is the film title/chorus, (which you can read of course, so already are aware of the phrase).

(incidentally, i hope lateralthinking1 watches the dvd/film, as i'd be interested to know what he thinks of it. especially in view of his recent points about the hip hop genre generally, as posted on the forum's 'world music' section).

[Chris Newman]

Yes, he lived just round the corner from where I live and went to the local junior school. I think life in Hollywood removed all traces of the (in)famous Bristle axin.

I don't go to the pick-tewers much these days, but the first film I remember which was largely unintelligible was Serpico (1973) with Al Pacino. I eventually managed to identify the most commonly occurring word in the screenplay, which began with 'f' . (How times change ...)

Though to be fair to Cary Grant, every time he says "Oh!" in surprise in a script there is the tiniest hint of a Bristol "l" bursting through.

[Ian Thumwood]

Can't believe that the excellent "The Wire" hasn't been mentioned on this thread. Took me several episodes before I could understand anything the drug dealing characters were saying.

Oddily enough, I've recently been watching a few Japanese films by Ghibli that have American dubs and the effect is sometime a bit under-whelming. The most recent effort actually has both an American and English dub.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I very rarely watch American films, but I need subtitles for many of the English accents I hear on television. Bring back RP and lessons for children on how to speak clearly! (Note I did not say 'elocution lessons', because somehow that has the wrong image now.)

My piano teacher at school had an incredibly posh accent, but she came from Blackburn. It was rumoured that she had had elocution lessons, but we did not know whether or not this was the case. Then one day, she was becoming increasingly frustrated about my playing, saying there was not enough dynamic contrast. All of a sudden, she shouted in a broad Lancashire accent:
"Coom on! Play dooble fooertay!"

[scottycelt]

It really depends in which US accent is being used. Some is quite clear and almost sounds like English , but imagine what it is like for our American friends when they watch a film set in Sunderland, Barnsley or Glasgow.

You really think our American friends would have any less trouble with a film set in Watford, Romford or Stratford ... ?

It might well be a huge linguistic challenge for me never mind them...

[DracoM]

But even in 'Homeland', there are stretches of the material that I simply do not get. It might be age, but, honestly...............

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

You really think our American friends would have any less trouble with a film set in Watford, Romford or Stratford ... ?

Oh, I assumed we were only talking about English speakers.

[JFLL]

This side of the pond, we recently re-watched the DVDs of John Byrne's Tutti Frutti (Robbie Coltrane, Emma Thompson, Richard Wilson), which tests the boundaries of Glaswegian impenetrability.

Ah, Tutti Frutti – I've been waiting for that to be repeated for twenty years. Richard Wilson's never been better ("Miss Tooner, Jenice!") . But talking of Glaswegian impenetrabilty, Rab Nesbitt surely takes a bit of beating. I've often wondered whether people from Edinburgh or Aberdeen (or even middle-class Glasgow) miss things almost as much as we real outsiders from down south, not too far from Sidcup, in fact. Though Gregor Fisher somehow manages to seem just as funny to outsiders even if they don't understand half of what he says. Subtitles might even get in the way.

[Ferretfancy]

In the early days of sound , up until about WWII, exterior scenes in American films were nearly all shot on sound stages with artificially designed backgrounds. This principle was extended to scenes shot under controlled conditions on large studio lots. With the exception of westerns, few films were made on location, and they often had little exterior dialogue. Take a look at Gone with the Wind and count how many scenes take place in the open air.

Capturing sound on location is difficult, especially in wide shots, and so when the companies started to make use of real exteriors they resorted to post synching techniques. The dialogue was still recorded on location, but the results were only used as guide tracks, and the performers then re-recorded their lines in the studio, as in Singin in the Rain. Most films thus had clean clear dialogue, very much in the foreground and easy to understand. ADR is still extensively used today.

Films made from about the 1970s onward went back to the idea of using location sound, but American recordists had never had to do it very well, and I'm afraid it shows. There is only so much that a Dubbing Mixer can do to improve clarity. The problem has been exacerbated by the use of surround sound with the dialogue buried under an avalanche of effects and music, all made possible by first Dolby noise reduction, and later digital mixing.

In Britain things were rather different, in particular with television drama in which the use of location sound was the norm. Due to the pressure of time and cost, post synching was very rarely resorted to, and sound recordists had to be very skilful, some of the best in the world in my experience. In my time at the BBC I doubt if I did more than half a dozen post synch sessions, and only for scenes which could not have been dealt with in any other way.

It's also worth remembering that most films released on DVD are not remixed for home listening, and what is bearable in a big cinema can be horribly overblown at home. In these cases it's always the dialogue that gets lost. A good example in my own collection is The Lord of the Rings, which I can view with full surround sound.
I would have to play this DVD with the dialogue almost inaudible if I did not want the neighbours to ring the police during the battle scenes.
I also love Justified, with its Kentucky accents, but I always record it first so that i can run back to find out what they are saying. In this case it's well worth the effort!

[Mahlerei]

The real problem with US films is that they're balanced in favour of everything but the dialogue. The crash-bang-wallop films are the worst. I routinely watch films on disc/TV with the subtitles selected. I'm so used to them now I'd probably struggle without them. They're mandatory in some series too, such as The Wire.

PS: Winter's Bone is a mervellous film. I recommend it.

[marthe]

I'm an American and I don't always understand the dialogue in American films either. I think it's a generational thing. Americans of my children's generation, who are now now nearing thirty, have a rather different accent from the accent of my generation. My sister refers to this as YPT (Young People Talk).The dialogue in American films and TV shows made before the mid-1970s is much easier to understand.

Ferretfancy, thanks for such a clear explanation of sound recording techniques.

[scottycelt]

Ah, Tutti Frutti – I've been waiting for that to be repeated for twenty years. Richard Wilson's never been better ("Miss Tooner, Jenice!") . But talking of Glaswegian impenetrabilty, Rab Nesbitt surely takes a bit of beating. I've often wondered whether people from Edinburgh or Aberdeen (or even middle-class Glasgow) miss things almost as much as we real outsiders from down south, not too far from Sidcup, in fact. Though Gregor Fisher somehow manages to seem just as funny to outsiders even if they don't understand half of what he says. Subtitles might even get in the way.

Aberdeen?

Both my parents came from the Granite City and could easily revert to 'The Doric' which must be the most 'impenetrable' dialect in the UK.

Believe me, broad Glaswegian is almost Received Pronunciation, in comparison ...

Still, I digress from the main topic. There is nothing wrong with Americans speaking with local accents on film ... that's realism for you ... if sub-titles are required for the 'challenged' outsider, so be it.

I thought many in the UK, including some presenters on the BBC and the rest of the media, already now talk in a pseudo-American manner, anyway?

[french frank]

Aberdeen?

Both my parents came from the Granite City and could easily revert to 'The Doric' which must be the most 'impenetrable' dialect in the UK.

Yes, I had a builder who would revert to it every time I had something to ask/tell him. And the schoolchildren were said to be bilingual - one accent for school, another for home.

There is nothing wrong with Americans speaking with local accents on film ... that's realism for you ... if sub-titles are required for the 'challenged' outsider, so be it.

Not sure if someone's already said this - but it would be rather the same as surtitles for operas in English (also necessary, in my view).

I thought many in the UK, including some presenters on the BBC and the rest of the media, already now talk in a pseudo-American manner, anyway?

There's certainly a distinct American aspect to the tweets (as in CB-H's, 'Come say hi', apparently being an invitation to people to listen to her Breakfast Show to discover what was 'possibly my favourite piece of music EVER').

[Panjandrum]

I'm an American and I don't always understand the dialogue in American films either. I think it's a generational thing. Americans of my children's generation, who are now now nearing thirty, have a rather different accent from the accent of my generation. My sister refers to this as YPT (Young People Talk).The dialogue in American films and TV shows made before the mid-1970s is much easier to understand.

Interesting points Marthe. We often think that only in Britain (or should that be "Bri'n"?) have accents changed markedly since the 40s/50s and even from the 60s and 70s. However, there is no question that American accents have altered practically as drastically. The kind of folksy drawl, or urbanely prim accents, heard on many movies from the post war years definitely belong to a bygone era.