French Elections 2012

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

i like the look and the speeches of M Melenchon now at about 17% in the polling .... seems to me he is telling it like it is

opponents call the Left Front programme an "economic nightmare" or a "delirious fantasy". Shouldn't they instead use this terminology to describe the banking debacle or austerity policies across Europe? Mélenchon's growing number of supporters view it as common sense and salutary: a 100% tax on earnings over £300,000; full pensions for all from the age of 60; reduction of work hours; a 20% increase in the minimum wage; and the European Central Bank should lend to European governments at 1%, as it does for the banks. Here are a few realistic measures to support impoverished populations. Is this a revolution? No, it is radical reformism; an attempt to stop the most unbearable forms of economic domination and deprivation in our societies. Fat cat bosses may leave France; they will be replaced by younger and more competent ones who will work for a fraction of their wages. "Humans First!" is more than a manifesto title, it is a democratic imperative: a sixth republic in place of the current republican monarchy; the nationalisation of energy companies (as energy sources are public goods) and, less often noticed, the ecological planning of the economy, the core of Mélenchon's political project.

graun

[Serial_Apologist]

Bring him over here!

[Simon]

i like the look and the speeches of
M Melenchon

I'm sure you do Calum. Typical unrealistic fantasy from the left. If and when he gets into power, of course, he'll soon realise that all these wonderful promises of utopia have to be paid for. The most worrying thing is that he thinks this can be done by borrowing...

Been there, done that, it's why the Greeks, among others, are in the mess they are now...

[Serial_Apologist]

If and when he gets into power, of course, he'll soon realise that all these wonderful promises of utopia have to be paid for.

And after living all these years on this planet, and acting as an exemplary human being to the young, leaving aside such conveniently ignorable things as wars no public ever voted for and corruption and wastage at the highest levels, signally managing to escape your attention are the amounts of money forever poured into producing meretricious, unsustainable throwaway trash to sustain your kind of utopia - and we're not just talking consumer goods, simon.

[Chris Newman]

Been there, done that, it's why the Greeks, among others, are in the mess they are now...

Of course it was the fault of the Greeks. They invented Democracy......

[Lateralthinking1]

Yes, I do like this candidate on the basis of the article. It is just a pity that people only support candidates of the left if they come with drama and almost as caricature.

What did Greece do by the way other than upset Standard & Poors?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

i think this guy is getting caricatured and misrepresented because he frightens the people who don't get it; they just have money

[Simon]

What did Greece do by the way other than upset Standard & Poors?

I'm finding it hard to believe that you ask this seriously, Lat, but still...

Whilst there is some evidence that fiscal mismanagement and ridiculous borrowing and spending was not wholly to blame for some of the debt problems in some EU countries, even Krugman would maintain that the major cause of the Greek debt was simply a largely unfettered and massive increase in pay and pensions to a bloated pubklic sector - primarily, one could suggest, to keep them voting for the government of the day. A bit like Blair/Brown did here, actually, which is why there was no money left for the Coalition.

Supposedly linked to the Euro with encircling rules that bound them to certain levels of responsibility, the Greeks - and others - managed to find ways to circumvent these rules. (They were aiuded in this by a number of USA financial institutions, which should have been heavily censored, too). The Greeks should have been jumped on immediately - but hey, it's the EU we're talking about. People aren't jumped on for breaking the rules - only for telling about people breaking the rules...

They therefore racked up obligations that they had no hope of servicing, irresepctive of any banking crisis or any other economic event. To blame S & P for this is to blame the policeman for catching the thief.

[Simon]

And after living all these years on this planet, and acting as an exemplary human being to the young, leaving aside such conveniently ignorable things as wars no public ever voted for and corruption and wastage at the highest levels, signally managing to escape your attention are the amounts of money forever poured into producing meretricious, unsustainable throwaway trash to sustain your kind of utopia - and we're not just talking consumer goods, simon.

Having finally deciphered this long ramble, might one request some clarity of thought and ask for a simple question as to what is supposed to have escaped my attention?

I doubt it will have, but either way I'll be happy to respond.

[Nick Armstrong]

And so yet another thread turns into the usual polarised, tetchy, sarcasm-ridden ding-dong...

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

try this

and this

and this

and this

closer to home

you will deride this but what the hell Simon ...


and they are just a quick clip off the top from the last few days ....

the neo liberal [USA version] Austerity [Ggerman and UK versions] are based on the economics of serious failure .... austerity kills by starvation, sickness and anomie .... my parents fought 80 years ago and for most of their lives against the poverty of the early 20th century and the Great Depression and the rich and corporatist interests that sacrificed people for money ... and the factions that hold power are making the same awful noises they made then in EU and USA ....as if nothing was ever learned or known ....

i don't care what YOU think Simon.... you don't get it sunshine, you don't get it ... the whole 112years from 1900 to 2012 has escaped your attention ... some of us are interestd in identifying what there is that might work to make a positive difference that is not just a rerun of the failed politics since 1951 to the present .... why don't you go somewhere else if you are not interested and have nothing but knocking copy to contribute ... or do you not want to run the risk that we might just occasionally agree with you?

[aeolium]

Good links, Calum. I especially agree with George Soros about the damaging effects of the Maastricht treaty and flawed monetary union, which contributed as much to the present intractable European crisis as financial deregulation. But surely there was a distinction - for economic purposes anyway - between the politics of 1951 to c 1979 and that from 1979 in that the former was largely governed by Keynesian policies and the latter has been governed by monetarism, which has had a much more pernicious effect (and still has).

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

agreed aeolium but my feeling is that such differences as there are between these approaches are now overshadowed by the failure of both in the medium term ... and it could be argued that the Wilson Callaghan Governments did not invest so much as pay off the unions [Thatcher's case] and that the best Keynesian politicians were Brown & Darling ... even Maggie, monetarist as she was, did not suffer the hubris of the neo liberal deregulation in the heady delusions of winning the Cold War ...these latter twits still think they are right .....

it is time to stand up and say boo very loudly to the bond markets and hedge funds, largely disguised versions of the banks who owe us all their money ....

[Simon]

[ And so yet another thread turns into the usual polarised, tetchy, sarcasm-ridden ding-dong...

I'm really sorry, Caliban. I hadn't realised that we were only allowed to post as long as we agree with the views of the OP. I didn't understand that the forum is simply so that like-minded people of left-of-centre views could have the opportunity to comment on various subjects, free of any opposing argument.

Mea culpa.

[Simon]

i don't care what YOU think Simon.... you don't get it sunshine, you don't get it ... the whole 112years from 1900 to 2012 has escaped your attention ... some of us are interestd in identifying what there is that might work to make a positive difference that is not just a rerun of the failed politics since 1951 to the present

Conversely, I'm always interested in your posts Calum. I agree with many of them.

However, I can't in this case: the fundamental problem of Greece lies with irresponsible borrowing and unsustainable public sector growth. It really is almost that simple. And I most certainly do "get" it!

That said, in general terms I agree that it's time for the false economic bubbles to be burst once and for all. You may recall that a few months ago I linked to an organisation asking for just that. The current model of basing massive credit on chimera is ridiculous and has been for years. In fact, if you look at how banking has developed, that too is ridiculous. The problem of course is that the system is now so pervasive that it's tough for anyone to fiind the political will to alter it. Try getting a majority on a ticket of widespread change!