The Small Ball Game

[MrGongGong]

Yes, many times, and the last time I was there (admittedly some years ago) I played the Old Course with an old friend and our social insignificance then and now is quite legendary ...

aaah yes indeed
So that's at least £70 a go then

(http://www.standrews.org.uk/Playing-...urse-info.aspx)

Truly a game "for the masses"

[scottycelt]

It's actually not difficult to see why. Manicured greens and fairways, sand bunkers - these are not exactly natural habitats. Golf courses can look very attractive, but they are environmentally damaging, not least in the amount of watering involved in keeping them so green.

So, by the same yardstick (no pun intended), most household gardens are therefore also environmentally damaging?

What would you suggest might be preferable in their place ... concrete slabs to support environmentally-friendly, petrol-guzzling cars, including possibly the even greater amount of water involved in keeping them so clean?

[scottycelt]

aaah yes indeed
So that's at least £70 a go then

(http://www.standrews.org.uk/Playing-...urse-info.aspx)

Truly a game "for the masses"

One doesn't have to play golf at St Andrews, you know, anymore than one has to play tennis at Wimbledon ... I don't know if you are aware but they are many municipal and much less expensive private courses (guests allowed) in Scotland where the golf masses can and do strut their stuff.

I happen to know that, as I used to be one of them, Mr GG ...

[pilamenon]

So, by the same yardstick (no pun intended), most household gardens are therefore also environmentally damaging?

Only those large gardens laid mainly to lawn, that regularly use herbicides to keep the weeds out and large amounts of water to keep them green. Most gardens support a far more diverse variety of plants than golf courses do.

What would you suggest might be preferable in their place ... concrete slabs to support environmentally-friendly, petrol-guzzling cars, including possibly the even greater amount of water involved in keeping them so clean?

Whatever was there before? I don't think many golf courses are built on ex-motorways or inner-city road systems.

[Richard Tarleton]

I've heard a few criticisms of various golf courses in my time, but having 'a terrible impact on the environment' is certainly one of the more remarkable and puzzling. My first-ever boyhood sighting of a water-vole was on a municipal course in the suburbs of a then very dirty city of Glasgow.

Not sure what all the facts are concerning the 'evil Trump' and his Golf project in Aberdeenshire, but I suspect plenty of those magnificent dunes will long outlive Donald J Trump and his dastardly plans for the area.

The environmental impacts of golf can be clearly seen in southern Spain where precious water resources are used, and water tables lowered, so that northern Europeans can play golf.

As for Trump - mobile sand dunes support a unique and (in UK terms) threatened ecosystem, in particular plants and invertebrates, that can only thrive in, er, mobile sand. Once it's gone, it's gone. Shame on the Scottish government for selling its environemtal heritage (and ignoring its advisers, SNH) for a mess of pottage.

Was it quite a wet golf course Scotty? Water voles were quite widespread 50 years ago so that's not altogether surprising. I note there is (or was) a locally distinct form of water vole in Argyll.

[scottycelt]

Only those large gardens laid mainly to lawn, that regularly use herbicides to keep the weeds out and large amounts of water to keep them green. Most gardens support a far more diverse variety of plants than golf courses do.



Whatever was there before? I don't think many golf courses are built on ex-motorways or inner-city road systems.

That's true, in the case of many courses it would simply return to moorland and sand dunes. I suppose one could argue a case for not building anything on any sort of land due to the effect on natural resources, homes and farms included.

Of all human forms of land exploitation, I rather tend to look upon the building of golf courses as one of the more compatible with the natural environment.

Of course, billionaires like Donald J Trump will not be particularly concerned about the natural environment, so I'm certainly not suggesting that every projected golf course is necessarily suitable for any area at any particular time.

For some here and elsewhere such issues are all about politics , for others it is simply making the best use of any land available which is acceptable to the majority of the local population. Any 'losers' in cases like the Aberdeenshire plan should (and presumably will) be heavily compensated to their own advantage.

I can't see much wrong with that, but then again I don't live in the region, so it's no real business of mine, or any other outsider for that matter.

[MrGongGong]

For some here and elsewhere such issues are all about politics , for others it is simply making the best use of any land available which is acceptable to the majority of the local population. Any 'losers' in cases like the Aberdeenshire plan should (and presumably will) be heavily compensated to their own advantage.

I can't see much wrong with that, but then again I don't live in the region, so it's no real business of mine, or any other outsider for that matter.

So far be it for me, and Englishman to give you a lecture about Scottish History

BUT

I guess you mean that they will be compensated like the inhabitants of the Highlands when they were replaced by sheep then ?

Where in your religion that you are so fond of defending as a way of living is the bit that says "the rich shall inherit the earth, and not just the bit they live in , the whole of it, because as it is written that everything has a price"....

[MrGongGong]

Of all human forms of land exploitation, I rather tend to look upon the building of golf courses as one of the more compatible with the natural environment.

That's because

a: You seem to know nothing about what IS compatible with the environment
and
b: You like to play golf and don't want a few tree huggers to get in the way

For some here and elsewhere such issues are all about politics , for others it is simply making the best use of any land available which is acceptable to the majority of the local population. Any 'losers' in cases like the Aberdeenshire plan should (and presumably will) be heavily compensated to their own advantage.

I can't see much wrong with that, but then again I don't live in the region, so it's no real business of mine, or any other outsider for that matter.

So far be it for me, an Englishman to give you a lecture about Scottish History

BUT

I guess you mean that they will be compensated like the inhabitants of the Highlands when they were replaced by sheep then ?

Where in your religion that you are so fond of defending as a way of living is the bit that says "the rich shall inherit the earth, and not just the bit they live in , the whole of it, because as it is written that everything has a price"....

[Lateralthinking1]

I agree that there are far better things than golf courses for the ecosystem. However, as with motorways, there are many ways in which you can mitigate against adverse environmental impacts - planting etc.

I have to say that all green spaces, including golf courses, are very important to me almost irrespective of other environmental considerations. My outlook is probably shaped by being in a suburban area on the edge of Greater London.

[scottycelt]

The environmental impacts of golf can be clearly seen in southern Spain where precious water resources are used, and water tables lowered, so that northern Europeans can play golf.

As for Trump - mobile sand dunes support a unique and (in UK terms) threatened ecosystem, in particular plants and invertebrates, that can only thrive in, er, mobile sand. Once it's gone, it's gone. Shame on the Scottish government for selling its environemtal heritage (and ignoring its advisers, SNH) for a mess of pottage.

Was it quite a wet golf course Scotty? Water voles were quite widespread 50 years ago so that's not altogether surprising. I note there is (or was) a locally distinct form of water vole in Argyll.

In my experience, all golf courses in suburban Glasgow tend to be 'wet', Richard ...

Water voles may have been 'common' in the countryside but not where I resided as a boy. Interesting about the distinct Argyllshire variety, I didn't know that.

Your point about golf courses in Spain and other hot-climate countries is a good one, and surely chimes with my own earlier comments about the one at Augusta?

As I indicated to pilamenon, golf courses are not necessarily suitable everywhere, but they seem to have been pretty successful (and extremely popular) on the east coast of Scotland, where sand-dunes remain in plentiful supply!

[scottycelt]

So far be it for me, an Englishman to give you a lecture about Scottish History

Carry on, Mr GG ... historically, it goes with the Scottish territory ...

[MrGongGong]

Carry on, Mr GG ... historically, it goes with the Scottish territory ...

Of course
Roll over and get the rich man to rub your tummy , he might give you a biscuit if you are lucky ........

[Richard Tarleton]

Of course
Roll over and get the rich man to rub your tummy , he might give you a biscuit if you are lucky ........

Perhaps Scotty is from staunch Jacobite stock, like I am through one branch of the family. My ancestors fought the English at Killiekrankie, Sherrifmuir, Prestonpans, Falkirk, Culloden....After that, they wised up and became architects and accountants in London

[scottycelt]

Perhaps Scotty is from staunch Jacobite stock, like I am through one branch of the family. My ancestors fought the English at Killiekrankie, Sherrifmuir, Prestonpans, Falkirk, Culloden....After that, they wised up and became architects and accountants in London

Very wise ...

I'm now rather reluctant to reveal that I'm actually descended from members of the Clan MacKay who fought on the side of the mainly English Army at Culloden, no doubt to grab a nice supply of MrGG's human equivalent of dog-biscuits.

I do occasionally feel, particularly on this forum, that my ancestral clan's raison d'être was simply to be the natural tribe of confirmed contrarians ...

[teamsaint]

crazy golf is more fun, cheaper, and better for the environment. Oh, and you can have an ice cream at the end.

I bet we would win olympic crazy golf.