The long boat game

[french frank]

I've just asked someone who is currently at Aberdeen and the music degree is a BMus

and to quote him

"a scottish MA is like a half degree in one thing and a half in another
Masters Students get an MMus"

Yes, the MA only applies to the main degree in the Arts Faculty. And I think your contact must be referring to degrees in music when he speaks of it being a 'half degree' - on the grounds that the main degree is a BMus. In the Arts Faculty the MA is the usual first degree. I checked the link you gave and the situation now is as it was when I was there except that an Ordinary MA seems now to be called a Designated MA - but they refer to the same thing: an unclassified 3-yr general degree.

M.Mus will be the equivalent of the Arts M.Litt.

The main difference with the Oxford MA is that it is 'technically' a postgrad degree but as you don't have to study for it they have the B.Litt. to indicate the higher degree for those who have produced dissertations (don't know if they have taught B.Litts - would suspect not).

[french frank]

"a scottish MA is like a half degree in one thing and a half in another
Masters Students get an MMus"

Ah, I think what he's saying is that if you do a Joint Honours degree in Music and something else, you get an MA (so it is a half degree in music). If you do a single Honours, you get the B.Mus.

[Lateralthinking1]

Ah, I think what he's saying is that if you do a Joint Honours degree in Music and something else, you get an MA (so it is a half degree in music). If you do a single Honours, you get the B.Mus.

Is this right? I'm a History and Politics, England. Does this mean that a History and Politics, Scotland is automatically an MA? From a hoodwinking an employer point of view, this is a scandal.

[MrGongGong]

Is this right? I'm a History and Politics, England. Does this mean that a History and Politics, Scotland is automatically an MA? From a hoodwinking an employer point of view, this is a scandal.

Not as much a scandal of how English students pay more than the rest of the EU to go to university in Scotland
and yes it is right (my daughter is at a Scottish University and she is doing a BMus)
I used to think you were a saucepan thanks for putting me right

[Lateralthinking1]

No I'm definitely a History and Politics, England but I do have a giant wok.

[MrGongGong]

No I'm definitely a History and Politics, England but I do have a giant wok.

oooer mrs
is it big enough to go boating on the Thames by any chance ?

[Lateralthinking1]

oooer mrs
is it big enough to go boating on the Thames by any chance ?

Yes, easily thanks.

[Panjandrum]

Is this right? I'm a History and Politics, England. Does this mean that a History and Politics, Scotland is automatically an MA? From a hoodwinking an employer point of view, this is a scandal.

I think most HR depts would be wise to this one, don't you?

By the way, I'm still interested in your response to those replies to your request for what Cambridge has done in the last 50 years; or does your silence indicate that you are prepared to grant the institution a stay of execution?

[vinteuil]

I think most HR depts would be wise to this one, don't you?

You might have thought so. And yet I was amused to discover, when I was in government service [1977-1995], our Personnel Department (as 'Human Resources' woz called in those days) noted my Oxford MA as a 'postgraduate degree'. Diffident as ever, I didn't choose to correct their data-base...

[MrGongGong]

All puts me in mind of the various confusions over being a "proper" doctor !
A good friend who has a "proper" Phd which involved very detailed acoustical analysis of concert halls and churches with reference to how this affects performance practice and organ building, told me that he has frequently been asked whether he was a "proper" doctor or not. "Proper" doctors to most people are people who have studied medicine not arty farty types
To my way of thinking, a "proper" (if such a thing exists ?) PHd involves some original thought and research that no one else has done, along the lines of "the history of music is incomplete without reference to the neglected influence of Jewish ritual music on the works of Elgar" kind of thing.......... However, someone I know is doing a "phd" in chemistry which is largely working as a researcher for a professor developing coatings for steel structures (and really is largely concerned with the ways in which paint dries ) , there's NO original research involved but he will get a Phd. All things are NOT equal at all, if you want to be strategic and get a job which isn't necessarily connected to your degree then the name of the institution is sadly more important than what you studied there. So a degree in hairdressing with flower arranging from Harvard will be much more valuable to employers than a rather hardcore music degree from Durham.

[vinteuil]

All puts me in mind of the various confusions over being a "proper" doctor !
.

But the whole bizniss of "doctorates" in British academia is really pretty recent. Traditionally a "Doctor" was an MD, a medical doctor; in academe it was a rare honour ( a D Litt, a DD, an LL D, a D Mus as woz offered to Haydn... )

It was only - in the second half of the twentieth century - when American universities were awarding doctorates as the essential entry-diploma to academic life - and suddenly British academics who had hitherto been quite happy with their B.Litts, M.Phils, MSc s et al - found that they were at a disadvantage - that British universities speeded up the production of DPhils and PhDs.

As an undergraduate in Oxford in the early 70s, there were still many dons, readers, and professors who were Mr/Mrs/Miss xxxx rather than Dr xxxx. I don't expect this wd be the case now.

[french frank]

All puts me in mind of the various confusions over being a "proper" doctor !

Well, exactement. I don't know why people are getting in a tizz about a mere Master's degree ...

Cambridge has the right idea: none of your work matters until after you've got your PhD.

[french frank]

As an undergraduate in Oxford in the early 70s, there were still many dons, readers, and professors who were Mr/Mrs/Miss xxxx rather than Dr xxxx. I don't expect this wd be the case now.

Certainly, one of the longest and most solid pieces of research I was aware of was submitted to Oxford for the degree of B.Litt. It would have merited a PhD (or D.Phil) at any other university but ...

In my day it was the case that if junior lecturers didn't finish their PhDs within three years of appointment they weren't granted tenure. And there was a (possibly) mythical cut-off point after which you were given your marching orders. As a junior lecturer I was part of a union deputation which complained about this inhumane treatment

[Lateralthinking1]

You might have thought so. And yet I was amused to discover, when I was in government service [1977-1995], our Personnel Department (as 'Human Resources' woz called in those days) noted my Oxford MA as a 'postgraduate degree'. Diffident as ever, I didn't choose to correct their data-base...

Well, I'm absolutely shocked. I always thought that an Oxford MA was a postgraduate degree. I'm now going to have to review all the detailed staff reports I wrote on my teachers. Clearly, the grades I awarded them were entirely wrong.

[kernelbogey]

But the whole bizniss of "doctorates" in British academia is really pretty recent. Traditionally a "Doctor" was an MD, a medical doctor; in academe it was a rare honour ( a D Litt, a DD, an LL D, a D Mus as woz offered to Haydn... )[...]

A friend of a friend, who had a PhD, call him Smith, when checking in at the reception of his local surgery for an appointment with his medical practitioner, call him Jones, would say 'Dr Smith for his appointment with Mr Jones'.