The long boat game

[teamsaint]

money pays for the best things in life(well a lot of them , anyway).

It certainly pays for a top quality education and the best networks in the education system.

There are enough talented people to fill Oxbridge (and other sought after universities)many times over, and the university could be filled with top class talent from outside the elite private schools very easily.

Too many opportunities in our society go to those who have the money.
The proportion of kids from private schools, and especially the most top public schools, who get into Oxbridge is a scandal.
Our society deserves better.
I suggest that if you think opportunity is anywhere near fair or equal in our society,next time you are in London, you take a ride from London Bridge Station to South Bermondsey, keep looking out of the window all the way, and wonder how people born and raised there might feel about the issue.

[Beef Oven]

You'll like this girl then -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...th-letter.html

[Edited by the Moderator]

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[Simon]

FF has identified a possible alternative explanation for why so many Oxbridge alumni end up in highly paid jobs and in government, the civil service, etc. That is:

1. There is a lot of competition to get into those jobs, so the employers are able to pick the best people.

2. There is also a lot of competition to get into Oxbridge, so they, too, can pick the best of the applicants.

3. Both sets of institutions are seen as desirable places to be, so the best people tend to apply.

4. Not surprisingly, both sets of institutions end up with the same people.

We do have to differentiate between correlation and causation, don't we?

We do indeed, but the people who are making these claims of elitism are unlikely to be able to understand such differentiation, for if they had that level of perception they wouldn't be making such silly comments in the first place.

[Simon]

There are enough talented people to fill Oxbridge (and other sought after universities)many times over, and the university could be filled with top class talent from outside the elite private schools very easily.

Good grief. There most certainly are not. I can't believe anybody really thinks like this.

[MrGongGong]

Some people make the assumption that somehow going to Camford is automatically the best place for everyone because "that's where the best people go" without really examining exactly WHAT the subject is hence some of the comments about this student "missing and opportunity" etc In my experience I would have missed many opportunities by going to either of these two places as they don't have the specialisations in the things that I was interested in studying.

[John Skelton]

Good grief. There most certainly are not. I can't believe anybody really thinks like this.

How on earth do you know that there most certainly are not?

Weird.

[Vile Consort]

We do indeed, but the people who are making these claims of elitism are unlikely to be able to understand such differentiation, for if they had that level of perception they wouldn't be making such silly comments in the first place.

Another ad hominem attack, Simon? If you are going to do that, would you mind batting for the other side please?

[Mr Pee]

[Post edited by the Moderator]

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[Beef Oven]

Some people make the assumption that somehow going to Camford is automatically the best place for everyone because "that's where the best people go" without really examining exactly WHAT the subject is hence some of the comments about this student "missing and opportunity" etc In my experience I would have missed many opportunities by going to either of these two places as they don't have the specialisations in the things that I was interested in studying.

Yeah, that's why I didn't go - they were gutted.

[Vile Consort]

Some people make the assumption that somehow going to Camford is automatically the best place for everyone because "that's where the best people go" without really examining exactly WHAT the subject is hence some of the comments about this student "missing and opportunity" etc In my experience I would have missed many opportunities by going to either of these two places as they don't have the specialisations in the things that I was interested in studying.

Absolutely. Going to Oxbridge isn't so much getting a prize as being sentenced to three years' hard labour. Those who won't be able to cope with it would be better going somewhere else. I've never worked as hard in my life as I did for those three years.

[John Skelton]

If it's possible to have a conversation about this, it certainly shouldn't be a conversation which fails to recognise the wonderful achievements of scholarship, learning and imagination of Oxford and Cambridge, or suggests that the problems of access and self-perpetuating inclusion / exclusion are only problems for Oxford and Cambridge. My undergraduate university was University College London, and the same criticisms could be made of UCL.

The changes to funding for undergraduate teaching in English universities will make all of these problems more acute. The so-called elite universities have compromised themselves by sensing an opportunity in those changes (the effective privatisation of humanities and social sciences teaching for undergraduates).

[teamsaint]

Good grief. There most certainly are not. I can't believe anybody really thinks like this.

its a simple observation.
Lots of people get three straight A's for instance. (and please don't tell me you only have to turn up to get those).

Lots of VERY good candidates can't get places.

Have you ever notice how many Firsts are obtained outside Oxbridge?
Or were they not worthy of a place?

[Flosshilde]

Last time I looked at this degree of censorship from someone purporting to show us the light or lead the way was Stalin or maybe Castro. Mind you, he sounds totalitarian enough to be Hitler. Maybe he thinks that being Easter he is the Second Coming?

Good grief - talk about hyperbole & cant! You could give masterclasses.

[Flosshilde]

Another ad hominem attack, Simon? If you are going to do that, would you mind batting for the other side please?

I most certainly do not want him batting for my side - & I'm sure Amateur51 wouldn't either.

[handsomefortune]

The so-called elite universities have compromised themselves by sensing an opportunity in those changes (the effective privatisation of humanities and social sciences teaching for undergraduates).

'compromised' is a polite way of expressing things imo john skelton. specifically disappointing that the boat stopper chap didn't raise this issue as an example of 'elitism leading to tyranny'!