The long boat game

[teamsaint]

I applied to Cambridge for entrance in 1973 after getting three straight A's and still had to sit the entrance exam and undergo a gruelling interview (which was entirely about the subject I proposed to study, I might add) at which I thought I hadn't done very well.

I notice that 75% of my college's admissions are from state schools, which, apparently, is about average for British universities. It is claimed it achieves this without positive discrimination, so rather casts doubt on what the other colleges are up to. It was also the first Cambridge mens' college to decide admit women. My experience of Oxbridge may therefore not be a wholly typical one.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/6265961/Private-school-pupils-dominate-universities.html

well north of 40% independent school pupils at Oxbridge still.
as for the 3 A's thing, I was just making a supposition......but it is quite hard to think that if LSE, UCL and Bristol were admitting lots of people with C's and B's in the late 70's, that Oxbridge was alway requiring straight A's and a pass in the entrance exam. (though no doubt some courses/colleges did).

[John Skelton]

Unless I'm mistaken (in which case I'm sure I'll be told and for which I apologise) there seems to be some idea floating around that UCL and, astoundingly, the LSE, are somehow among, or at least gravitating towards, "elite" educational establishments.

I think we should scotch that myth, in the interests of rational discussion.

The really annoying thing (for me) about this is that I couldn't care less about elite educational establishments, winners of prize x, y, z, rankings etc. but

for whatever it is worth

UCL has over 4,000 academic and research staff and 648 professors, the highest number of any British university. There are currently 46 Fellows of the Royal Society, 55 Fellows of the British Academy, 10 Fellows of the Royal Academy of Engineering and 99 Fellows of the Academy of Medical Sciences amongst UCL academic and research staff. There are 26 Nobel Prize winners and three Fields Medalists amongst UCL’s alumni and current and former staff, the most recent being Sir Charles K. Kao, who received the Nobel Prize for Physics in 2009. UCL is ranked 20th in the world (and 3rd in Europe) in the 2011 Academic Ranking of World Universities, 7th in the world (and 4th in Europe) in the 2011 QS World University Rankings and 17th in the world (and 5th in Europe) in the 2011 Times Higher Education World University Rankings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_College_London

You don't know anything about UCL, Simon. About its past or its present. Why do you do this sort of thing?

[Beef Oven]

The really annoying thing (for me) about this is that I couldn't care less about elite educational establishments, winners of prize x, y, z, rankings etc. but

for whatever it is worth

UCL has over 4,000 academic and research staff and 648 professors, the highest number of any British university. There are currently 46 Fellows of the Royal Society, 55 Fellows of the British Academy, 10 Fellows of the Royal Academy of Engineering and 99 Fellows of the Academy of Medical Sciences amongst UCL academic and research staff. There are 26 Nobel Prize winners and three Fields Medalists amongst UCL’s alumni and current and former staff, the most recent being Sir Charles K. Kao, who received the Nobel Prize for Physics in 2009. UCL is ranked 20th in the world (and 3rd in Europe) in the 2011 Academic Ranking of World Universities, 7th in the world (and 4th in Europe) in the 2011 QS World University Rankings and 17th in the world (and 5th in Europe) in the 2011 Times Higher Education World University Rankings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_College_London

You don't know anything about UCL, Simon. About its past or its present. Why do you do this sort of thing?

This post would have been best delivered by Rick from 'The Young Ones' with a preface of "I couldn't care less about elite.........but, for the record...... LAMOFJ!

[MrGongGong]

You don't know anything about UCL, Simon. About its past or its present. Why do you do this sort of thing?

Like a chimpanzee playing with it's genitals he just can't help it

[Vile Consort]

Unless I'm mistaken (in which case I'm sure I'll be told and for which I apologise) there seems to be some idea floating around that UCL and, astoundingly, the LSE, are somehow among, or at least gravitating towards, "elite" educational establishments.

I think we should scotch that myth, in the interests of rational discussion.

Simon, dear boy, if you want to "scotch that myth" you will need to produce a more rational argument than that! Some facts and figures might be helpful. Here are some somebody else prepared earlier.

In the Times Educational Supplement's rankings of world universities for 2011-12, the top UK insitutions were:

4. Oxford
6. Cambridge
8. Imperial College London
17. University College London
36. Edinburgh
47. LSE

There are several other sets of rankings available, but they all seem to have UCL and LSE in the top six or seven of UK universities (yes, yes, I am being vague ... tough, I don't think I am being misleading).

Perhaps you would like to disagree with the basis on which these tables were compiled. But at least they serve as the starting point for the rational discussion you so desire.

[Vile Consort]

well north of 40% independent school pupils at Oxbridge still.

I know. That's what I mean by wondering what the other colleges are up to.

as for the 3 A's thing, I was just making a supposition......but it is quite hard to think that if LSE, UCL and Bristol were admitting lots of people with C's and B's in the late 70's, that Oxbridge was alway requiring straight A's and a pass in the entrance exam. (though no doubt some courses/colleges did).

And if, having been so incredibly selective, those undergraduates then have to work damned hard even with all the assistance of the supervision system, is it not possible that at least some Oxbridge degrees are "harder" than those at other universities? I honestly don't know.

[MrGongGong]

And if, having been so incredibly selective, those undergraduates then have to work damned hard even with all the assistance of the supervision system, is it not possible that at least some Oxbridge degrees are "harder" than those at other universities? I honestly don't know.

So is that why you get the MA for free then ?
I get offers in my spam folder for those all the time
or above the toilet roll in the gents "sociology degrees, help yourself" type of qualification you mean ?

[Pabmusic]

Is that enough for you...?

I admire you patience.

[Vile Consort]

Some people think so but I prefer to think it's just been like that for centuries at Oxbridge and Dublin. What about universities on the continent? Did any of them do the same? Paris, for instance?

It makes it a bit awkward when filling in job application forms and you have to enter what degrees you were awarded with dates and the subject(s) studied!

[MrGongGong]

Some people think so but I prefer to think it's just been like that for centuries at Oxbridge and Dublin. What about universities on the continent? Did any of them do the same? Paris, for instance?

It makes it a bit awkward when filling in job application forms and you have to enter what degrees you were awarded with dates and the subject(s) studied!

Surely you only have to mention the magic name and then they will automatically know that you must be one of the chosen ones ?
seemed to work for Osbourne (not the "Prince Of Darkness" or POD as he is affectionately known )

[french frank]

So is that why you get the MA for free then ?

If you attend one of the Four Ancient Universities of Scotland you get an MA rather than a BA. I remember being surprised when I went up there as a postgrad to learn that someone I who I thought was a first-year was working for her MA. It then turned out all the undergraduate arts students were. That's the tradition at those (ancient) universities - all of which are more ancient than any of the English ones, bar Oxbridge.

So I'd say it's essentially the same medieval tradition, with a slight variation: when you have completed your first degree you are recognised as a Master.

[french frank]

Unless I'm mistaken (in which case I'm sure I'll be told and for which I apologise) there seems to be some idea floating around that UCL and, astoundingly, the LSE, are somehow among, or at least gravitating towards, "elite" educational establishments.

I think we should scotch that myth, in the interests of rational discussion.

I'm going to frame this quote and put it on the wall above my computer to remind me what good value Simon is.

LSE

[MrGongGong]

If you attend one of the Four Ancient Universities of Scotland you get an MA rather than a BA. I remember being surprised when I went up there as a postgrad to learn that someone I who I thought was a first-year was working for her MA. It then turned out all the undergraduate arts students were. That's the tradition at those (ancient) universities - all of which are more ancient than any of the English ones, bar Oxbridge.

So I'd say it's essentially the same medieval tradition, with a slight variation: when you have completed your first degree you are recognised as a Master.

Though from reading this (http://www.abdn.ac.uk/arts-socsci-ap...y-study-an-ma/) it woulds seem that the Scottish MA is more a generalist degree rather than what we in England would understand to be a postgraduate qualification. Aberdeen runs "ordinary" BA and Ba Hons etc etc as well as the MA thing mabe this reflects the different system where students go to university a year earlier than in England and courses normally last 4 as opposed to 3 years ?

[french frank]

Though from reading this (http://www.abdn.ac.uk/arts-socsci-ap...y-study-an-ma/) it woulds seem that the Scottish MA is more a generalist degree rather than what we in England would understand to be a postgraduate qualification. Aberdeen runs "ordinary" BA and Ba Hons etc etc as well as the MA thing mabe this reflects the different system where students go to university a year earlier than in England and courses normally last 4 as opposed to 3 years ?

I don't think that's quite correct, unless they have changed the system, which may indeed be the case now. The science faculty issued BSc degrees and I think education gave a BEd (not sure about that, not being involved in education! )

An Ordinary MA was the three-year 'generalist' degree, but the Honours MA took, for French, five years (four years plus the year abroad, compared with my BA Hons which took three years including 6 months abroad, the extra year at the Scottish universities being the equivalent of the final year at school).

Whether it's changed now or not, the point remains that the Oxford MA seems to be a continuance of a medieval tradition. The second degree is differentiated by being an M.Phil. So MA (Oxon) and M.Phil (Oxon) are of different value (just as at Aberdeen you got an MA and an M.Litt.).

Second thought: I think Oxford gave a B.Litt rather than M.Phil. So: MA, B.Litt (Oxon) would indicate 'first' and second degrees. (And D.Phil. rather than Ph.D - scrub the comment about M.Phil for Oxford)

[MrGongGong]

I don't think that's quite correct, unless they have changed the system, which may indeed be the case now. The science faculty issued BSc degrees and I think education gave a BEd (not sure about that, not being involved in education! )

An Ordinary MA was the three-year 'generalist' degree, but the Honours MA took, for French, five years (four years plus the year abroad, compared with my BA Hons which took three years including 6 months abroad, the extra year at the Scottish universities being the equivalent of the final year at school).

Whether it's changed now or not, the point remains that the Oxford MA seems to be a continuance of a medieval tradition. The second degree is differentiated by being an M.Phil. So MA (Oxon) and M.Phil (Oxon) are of different value (just as at Aberdeen you got an MA and an M.Litt.).

Second thought: I think Oxford gave a B.Litt rather than M.Phil. So: MA, B.Litt (Oxon) would indicate first and second degrees.

I've just asked someone who is currently at Aberdeen and the music degree is a BMus

and to quote him

"a scottish MA is like a half degree in one thing and a half in another
Masters Students get an MMus"