The long boat game

[Mary Chambers]

if that's a reference to my jocular remark earlier about me and the chip on my shoulder I promise you I don't have one (a chip, that is. I have two shoulders) . Of course people from comprehensive schools go to Oxford and Cambridge. But more from private / public schools go - and in terms of % of the population, the presence of private / public school pupils at Oxford and Cambridge is grossly disproportionate.

That's all true, isn't it?

It wasn't a reference to you, in fact. I was just expressing my irritation with chips on shoulders in general

I'm not sure of the exact facts, but I believe almost 60% of undergraduates at Cambridge come from state schools. Of course, state schools vary from very high-achieving grammar schools to sink comprehensives, but then independent schools vary from the highly academic to must-keep-the-little-darlings-away=from-the-oiks establishments, which don't have high academic standards.

I went to two Russell Group universities myself, except that the term wasn't in use when I went, as far as I know. Both were pretty good, I think - one north, one south.

[french frank]

[Edit In 2010 nearly a quarter of Oxford admissions were educated at a comprehensive school. http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/...-school-intake. I don't see why Oxford - or other so-called Russell Group universities - can't accurately be described as elitist in a negative sense, I'm afraid].

I saw some figures a while ago (sorry, cannot find again) that Cambridge, certainly, (not sure about Oxford), was by no means among the most popular/over subsubscribed universities. Many students don't apply in the first place because they think they won't get in. The perception is such that it becomes the reality. There are all sorts of - again - perceptions about Oxbridge which don't appeal to students from state schools. There are students who want to be part of the Oxbridge tradition and those who shun it. Nothing to do with ability or pre-university attainment.

But my points mainly related to why so many of the ruling class come from the same background. And that's where the UEA Creative Writing analogy comes in: those who want to succeed in politics go where they see their best chance of succeeding will be assisted.

[MrGongGong]

But my points mainly related to why so many of the ruling class come from the same background. And that's where the UEA Creative Writing analogy comes in: those who want to succeed in politics go where they see their best chance of succeeding will be assisted.

Indeed

I do find it a little odd that we think that it's a positive sign when a young person goes to university with a clear idea of what they want to do afterwards and it stays the same rather than they are changed by the experience. I was recently involved in designing an MA course for musician/composers working with live electronics in performance. We discussed a hypothetical student who did a brilliant performance at the audition/ interview and was really engaged with the whole course getting high marks etc etc and did a similar brilliant performance for the final assessment but this was hardly different from the initial brilliant performance. The question we were asking was whether they had really benefitted , did it change them in some way ? My own daughter is currently at university, it is very unusual amongst her peers to be undecided about what you "want to do" later in life. I do think this is a change in how we perceive higher education, i'm 48 and i'm still not sure what I want to do "when I grow up" because i'm currently interested in the music i'm working on NOW.

[Resurrection Man]

Neither do I, but then I've never really worked out what 'elitist' means. From reading things online I've realised that a great many people still think Oxbridge is for the rich upper class. Not so. Maybe once, but not now.

Sadly Mary, you have hit the nail on the head. The bigotry aimed at Oxford and Cambridge is quite depressing but I never did hold out much hope for any form of commonsense coming from those of the Citizen Smith of Tooting inclination. Too much rhetoric, methinks, too much hyperbole and cant.

I have looked at Oldfield's ramblings and they are incoherent. He also appears to have removed all negative comment from his Facebook pages and from his Twitter site thus stifling any discussion as to his aims..apart from wanting his fifteen minutes of fame, that is. Last time I looked at this degree of censorship from someone purporting to show us the light or lead the way was Stalin or maybe Castro. Mind you, he sounds totalitarian enough to be Hitler. Maybe he thinks that being Easter he is the Second Coming?

[Serial_Apologist]

Sadly Mary, you have hit the nail on the head. The bigotry aimed at Oxford and Cambridge is quite depressing but I never did hold out much hope for any form of commonsense coming from those of the Citizen Smith of Tooting inclination. Too much rhetoric, methinks, too much hyperbole and cant.

I have looked at Oldfield's ramblings and they are incoherent. He also appears to have removed all negative comment from his Facebook pages and from his Twitter site thus stifling any discussion as to his aims..apart from wanting his fifteen minutes of fame, that is. Last time I looked at this degree of censorship from someone purporting to show us the light or lead the way was Stalin or maybe Castro. Mind you, he sounds totalitarian enough to be Hitler. Maybe he thinks that being Easter he is the Second Coming?

Still, at least we were agreed on Philip Glass.

[Dave2002]

it is very unusual amongst her peers to be undecided about what you "want to do" later in life. I do think this is a change in how we perceive higher education, i'm 48 and i'm still not sure what I want to do "when I grow up" because i'm currently interested in the music i'm working on NOW.

I think it is simplistic to think that young people generally do know what they want to do. Some do, but many don't. I believe the argument that Oxford and Cambridge attracts people who really know what they want to do is only partly true. There will be many who don't know, or perhaps don't even want to go there, but their parents may want them to go there, or to other more prestigious non Oxbridge establishments. Sadly, also, I think there are many young people right now, some of them very able, who are not able to get jobs in areas they want to work in, or if they do, they have to "accept" a pitiful salary.

There's a very wide spectrum of ability across students going to different universities, and also a wide spectrum of motivation. I don't have a problem with universities such as Oxbridge and Cambridge taking bright students, and pushing them further, but it's rather sad that the skills and knowledge which one might learn in such establishments are often way above what is required in many of the more mundane aspects of life. I'm not blaming the universities for this, rather the way we run our lives.

I'm inclined to the view that most people have a random walk through life, and if they are "successful" it could just as well be due to luck. For every "successful" person, there may be many others with similar characteristics who are "unsuccessful". I put these words in quotes, as they are subjective. Even if some people believe that money and power equate to success, others may have different values.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

don't have a chip on your shoulder.

there are some generational and class issues here don't you think MaryChambers ... i treasure the chips on my shoulders because they were acquired in early childhood and certainly by 8yrs old .... it was in reaction to how we, the kids from the flats, were treated and communicated at by the residents of the houses all round us in Kensington .... in the late forties and early fifties the middle classes felt less restraint in expressing their views to kids ...

i went to a direct grant grammar school with a reputation and track record for oxbridge entry and scholarships but this was both a repulsive, and to be honest by the time i was 17, unattainable objective ... no matter i really did not want to go where all the effing toffs were and i also wanted to get away from the bourgeois bullies in the grammar school as well .... it took me a long while to find and respond to an educational experience that did not feel like an imposed class indoctrination in character, values and the work ethic ...

but my sprog went to a comp, won a scholarship to a private school and is now completing degree studies in blue chip oxford .... my son went to comps and a new university [Westminster] which served him admirably .... i went to one of Harold Wilson's techy places and read psychology in huts and converted cinemas ... was good but not great ... but no one in my family had ever been to grammar school never mind university .... even now rubbing shoulders with fellow parents of much more established middle class back grounds and wealth i still don't like them much and nor they me i suppose ... their forebears gave every indication of thinking i was unfit and impure as a kid .... some things you do not forget ...

what i do value was that in the 60s and 70s that our society was more open to upwards access to jobs and power .... the generation of grammar school kids after the 19444 act were changing the UK beyond recognition and that we are now closed up again .... for me that awkward chappy hit the nail on the head, especially going by the middle class outrage he has occasioned .... as if the boat race could be pernicious!

[David Underdown]

On the subject of the "closure" of the Thames, there are several other events throughout the year rowed over the (reverse) boat race course, the various "head of the river" competitions. They don't get the media hoopla, but are open to all the rowing clubs so far as I'm aware. Of course, my fellow Imperial alumni know that our eight usually regularly beats the blue boats in war up races

[Flay]

...our eight usually regularly beats the blue boats in war up races

Gosh, that's taking it a bit too seriously, David!

[Mary Chambers]

there are some generational and class issues here don't you think MaryChambers ... i treasure the chips on my shoulders because they were acquired in early childhood and certainly by 8yrs old .... it was in reaction to how we, the kids from the flats, were treated and communicated at by the residents of the houses all round us in Kensington .... in the late forties and early fifties the middle classes felt less restraint in expressing their views to kids ...

You'll like this girl then -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/9023169/State-school-student-mocks-Oxford-with-letter.html

[MrGongGong]

You'll like this girl then -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...th-letter.html

the funny bits are the comments underneath though !

Such as

'When she decides to grow up and want a good standard of life for her and her future family this may come back to haunt her!!!"

and

She almost certainly couldn't handle the superior quality of the college after the dullness of her bog-standard comprehensive stuffed full of dull, leftwing teachers and dull, unambitious pupils. The University is doubtless better off without her. And her dull opinions.



How dare Oiks have opinions

[Flosshilde]

How about depth charges along the length of the course? Crocodiles and Piranha Fish? Pools of burning oil?

(Perhaps a warm up event would be an idea, involving several of our Great Public Schools?)

oooh yes, I'd watch any of those. By warm-up event I assume you mean rowing through a sea of blazing oil? Or perhaps there should be a post-race warm-down event- the loosing crew's boat is set on fire (with them in it) & set adrift on the Thames on a falling tide.


Actually, I'm sure that the present government would like to see the unemployed take on the rowing duties, 'encouraged' by the cox wielding a whip. The race would be extended to cover the complete tidal stretch of the river.

[Vile Consort]

Dave2002 -

None of the people I knew at Cambridge had the faintest idea what they were going to do with the rest of their lives, except possibly one who sailed effortlessly to a First in maths and is now a professor at UCLA. I certainly didn't: I got sacked from my first two jobs.

Moreover, the Cambridge alumini magazine is full of people who are now running a pottery in Devon or some such enterprise. Perhaps it goes out of its way not to highlight people in top jobs.

I suppose I also knew a few who were aiming to reclaim the world for Christ. I often wonder how they got on.

[Mr Pee]

You'll like this girl then -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...th-letter.html

What a very stupid young woman. I'm sure she's happy now that she's had her fleeting moment of fame, but I trust that in years to come she'll be suitably embarrassed by this bit of teenage idiocy. Oxford are better off without her.

[handsomefortune]

She almost certainly couldn't handle the superior quality of the college after the dullness of her bog-standard comprehensive stuffed full of dull, leftwing teachers and dull, unambitious pupils. The University is doubtless better off without her. And her dull opinions.

whereas oxbridge is lightly coated with excited, ambitious, right wing tutors presumably. ( help )!

i much prefer the law under graduate's 'cheek', to the millionaire chap who keeps popping up on yahoo, telling kids not to 'bother getting a degree', as he allegedly made his money with no/little education. (he probably pinched it)?

rowing through a sea of blazing oil?

now you're talking! that does sound an exciting visual spectacle, and all the better for being sort of classical, traditional somehow.

or, how many miles can you row after consuming a mortar board full of glaxosmithkleine tablets... http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...500_AA300_.jpg (is the new 'v' shape at the front borrowed from spock, or batman)?
(may be a popular event presumably, as there's one hundred jobs going at gsk, for a few very lucky top science graduates ....who majored in sweeping up, &/or picking and packing)