QED

[ahinton]

or in the very healthy debating scene that exists outside of the public schools. (I know that this exists from personal experience).

The public schools always want the great unwashed to think that they are the only ones who can educate properly, but of course this is just a big lie.

The public school/oxbridge /city types are the ones who got us in this mess (and mess it is out here in the real world). As Einstein said, you can't solve a problem with the same thinking that caused it.

Noy a bigotted view, by the way, just logical. Some of my best friends are ex public school !!

Broadly speaking, I agree with you in principle, but then that must mean that there's no credible justification for blaming those quaintly-named "public schools" - or at least the education that they provide - for some of today's and yesterday's woes; yes, there's public (i.e. private) schools and state schools, yes - but, far more importantly, there are good schools and less good schools - good teachers and less good teachers - which is surely what matters. In any case, why seek to lay disproportionate amounts of blame upon schools of any kind for those woes?

[jean]

In 1968, I was in the last year in my North Wales Grammar School to take an examination in English Language including sentence analysis etc...Have young people had this sort of experience in the years since, I wonder?

I think it should be pointed out that the nobody does clause analysis any more anywhere, and for very good reasons.

[mangerton]

I think it should be pointed out that the nobody does clause analysis any more anywhere, and for very good reasons.

That is interesting. I did it fifty or so years ago, and I don't think it did me any harm. What are the vg reasons, please?

[handsomefortune]

there seems to be some confusion as to whether 'clause analysis' actually still exists, or not?

incidentally, claws analysis just about sums up recent global developments, i'm not in the least suprised that some have had (private) lessons.

did mr jay, for intance, do clause analysis, is it a part of legal qualifications.... or what?

very healthy debating scene that exists outside of the public schools. (I know that this exists from personal experience).

yes teamsaint, you're right imo. i know it definitely used to be a part of 'general studies' in comprehensive 6th form education, and sometimes schools competed in debate against one another...perhaps some schools still do this? or, perhaps it's perceived far too good an idea in terms of genuinely empowering people at a young age, enabling them to excell at presenting ideas successfully? i can see why it might be scrapped ... on the grounds of that old chestnut - 'too political'. suggesting people can survive without, politics as a sort of optional treat ....which we're all currently well aware of, now that two sets of sharp clawed poliltics are the mainstream option. consequently, participation is unfortunately perceived by too many, as a bit like voting for a burglary, or bad health .... especially by stalwart consumerists! the media can be extremely unhelpful obviously, which i think the leveson inquiry reminds (those who bother to keep up), of the nightmare it reflects, as the awful facts unfold. tbh some days i can't face the darker side of the news corp/political reality ..... so i can clearly see why people go shopping, with money they don't have 'instead'! (fortunately, both amatuer51, and calum da jazbo have both been very helpful in terms of prompting regular viewing of the (often grizzily) spectacle). evidently, the inquiry creates a horrible, self perpetuating vacuum but hopefully may lead to positive changes, (rather than curbs on citizens' freedom of speech). personally, i think politicians cozying up to the media should ideally be puinished by a life ban tbh ... perhaps of the whole party - that way we'd have some new, better stuff to vote for. (probably far too simplistic an idea - but i can dream ..it beats shopping, at least!

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

May day in Greece ....

[handsomefortune]

basta!

in spain as well as greece.

the media will presumably have to rustle up some cliches about 'lazy' mediteranean people 'loungeing in the sun'...(again) ...and possibly without news corps help, by the looks?

[jean]

That is interesting. I did [clause analysis] fifty or so years ago, and I don't think it did me any harm. What are the vg reasons, please?

I'm sure it did you no harm - especially if you found it easy - but I doubt if it did you much good, either.

Simply being able to identify a clause as a noun, adjectival or one of four (was it?) types of adverbial clause tells you little that is useful about how language works, except in the most mechanistic way.

And though linguists now tend to talk of finite and non-finite clauses, they didn't then, and so very complex and significant phrasal structures got lumped in with the nearest identifiable clause.

The now largely forgotten writer on language G H Vallins wrote at length about the shortcomings of the O level language syllabus as it existed in the 1950s in his excellent the Pattern of English, but instead of a reforming of the syllabus, what we got was an abandoning of any attempt to teach about language at all.

If I were choosing what to teach children about how language works, I would want them to understand how writers use language at sentence, paragraph and whole text level to achieve particular effects, and to be able to use that knowledge in their own writing.

I would call my new discipline Rhetoric.

[teamsaint]

Broadly speaking, I agree with you in principle, but then that must mean that there's no credible justification for blaming those quaintly-named "public schools" - or at least the education that they provide - for some of today's and yesterday's woes; yes, there's public (i.e. private) schools and state schools, yes - but, far more importantly, there are good schools and less good schools - good teachers and less good teachers - which is surely what matters. In any case, why seek to lay disproportionate amounts of blame upon schools of any kind for those woes?

well I agree with you. If I were to lay disproportionate blame for our problems at the door of the public schools (and others) it would only because their ex pupils disproportionately control our country.
I would agree that the difference between good and bad schools is very important. Sadly, though, networks are all too often more important than achievement.

[mangerton]

I'm sure it did you no harm - especially if you found it easy - but I doubt if it did you much good, either.

Simply being able to identify a clause as a noun, adjectival or one of four (was it?) types of adverbial clause tells you little that is useful about how language works, except in the most mechanistic way.

jean, thank you for your comments. I'm sure you're quite right; I don't think it did me much good. I didn't find it particularly easy, and I found the whole thing -and parsing, God help us - intensely boring. It all made a lot more sense, though, when I started doing French and (especially) Latin. I think learning these languages in the way they were taught in the early 60s would have been much more difficult without the English grounding we got in primary school.

Four types of adverbial clauses? My memory suggested more, and I have just dug out "A Study of Standard English", by Barclay Knox and Ballantyne, first pub. 1938. They list nine (sic) types of adverbial clauses.

And though linguists now tend to talk of finite and non-finite clauses, they didn't then, and so very complex and significant phrasal structures got lumped in with the nearest identifiable clause.

We had finite and non-finite verbs, back then.

The now largely forgotten writer on language G H Vallins wrote at length about the shortcomings of the O level language syllabus as it existed in the 1950s in his excellent the Pattern of English, but instead of a reforming of the syllabus, what we got was an abandoning of any attempt to teach about language at all.

Quite. I get extremely riled when I see work communications written by people who earn much more than I do, and who have no idea of the difference between its and it's, there, their, and they're, and affect and effect, let alone having the remotest clue about how to punctuate a sentence.

I would call my new discipline Rhetoric.

Didn't Aristotle do that?

[Serial_Apologist]

Can anyone explain to me why legal documents are written using no punctuation other than full stops? To make the hoi polloi give up in despair?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

it was the banks wot dun it and not households ...

and argue with Tories like Hammond who blame Joe Public for crashing the world by borrowing too much ...

[amateur51]

it was the banks wot dun it and not households ...

and argue with Tories like Hammond who blame Joe Public for crashing the world by borrowing too much ...

They won't like this in rural Derbyshire!

[Serial_Apologist]

The fact nevertheless remains that, with morgage debt factored back in, British household debt is higher than the other countries indicated in the charts. The very dog-eat-dog long-term character of British capitalism has always instilled the "make hay while the sun shines" culture over here which the self-righteous right hypocritically calls greed; and again, unlike in other European countries, over-dependence on the home ownership model to supply-and-demand in housing provision creates the conditions for landlords and ladies to push up rents when negative equity and lowering wages and salaries force people back into the private rented sector.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

yep S_A but that is a 'structural' fault in the UK economy not a moral responsibility as Hammond et al accuse

[ahinton]

unlike in other European countries, over-dependence on the home ownership model to supply-and-demand in housing provision creates the conditions for landlords and ladies to push up rents when negative equity and lowering wages and salaries force people back into the private rented sector.

Someone has to own the homes, whether they be those who are buying and living in them or those who buy and let them to those who live in them - and people have to live somewhere - on which bases I don't quite understand how a perceived "over-dependence on the home ownership model" (which, as you correctly note, is indeed more prevalent in UK than in some other European countries) might be thought to cause any greater problems than would a lesser dependence thereon; in other words, the problems that beset owners of housing stock are considerable whether they are the residents of those properties or the landlords/ladies. Would you care to explain that?