UK 'democracy'

[Bryn]

Is anyone here, apart from french frank, that is, ever likely to vote for the Lib-Dems in the future? What a bunch of wimpish sell-outs!

[MrGongGong]

Is anyone here, apart from french frank, that is, ever likely to vote for the Lib-Dems in the future? What a bunch of wimpish sell-outs!

I'm more likely to be arrested for (in an uncharacteristic manner !) punching one of them on the nose if they come round expecting me to forgive them and put a meaningless cross on a piece of paper in support.
I guess they can save a lot of money though by NOT having to go to the trouble of actually having a manifesto as it's meaningless.

[french frank]

Well, yes, I shall continue to fork out my £100+ annual subscription and deliver leaflets because there's a lot more to the party than MPs and peers. All things are not possible, and show me a political party which has gained power and kept all its manifesto promises. So, if you wouldn't vote for the LibDems on those grounds, who would you vote for?

Looks like a landslide victory next time for a small party which has never had to compromise because they've never been in power!

[Serial_Apologist]

show me a political party which has gained power and kept all its manifesto promises.

Not absolutely sure, but my guess would be Labour in 1945?

[french frank]

Not absolutely sure, but my guess would be Labour in 1945?

I didn't say a government, but a party. Labour under Blair introduced tuition fees when they said they wouldn't, raised tuition fees when they said they wouldn't, continued with various 'privatisations' (including in the NHS). I don't think you can count on Labour to keep every manifesto 'promise' in the future either.

Not that that will put people off voting Labour ... (to which I would add, nor should it).

[scottycelt]

Is anyone here, apart from french frank, that is, ever likely to vote for the Lib-Dems in the future? What a bunch of wimpish sell-outs!

Yes, why not, as Clegg & Co have done a pretty good job, imo ...

There are welcome Lib Dem policies that would never have seen the light of day under the Tories, like a more realistic approach towards the EU (silly single Cameron veto notwithstanding which had Clegg privately furious) and significantly higher tax allowances for the lower paid. There has been obvious LD influence in other areas of which I certainly don't approve, but that's hardly surprising in the great scheme of things.

I have voted Lib Dem in the past, and also the Tories and Labour at different times, depending on the circumstances, and will no doubt continue to do so again. Not all of us possess a particular political tribal loyalty.

Who was it that said that politics is 'the art of the possible'?

How very true!

[Serial_Apologist]

I didn't say a government, but a party. Labour under Blair introduced tuition fees when they said they wouldn't, raised tuition fees when they said they wouldn't, continued with various 'privatisations' (including in the NHS). I don't think you can count on Labour to keep every manifesto 'promise' in the future either.

Not that that will put people off voting Labour ...

It's time the Labour Party elected a new leader. Preferably she should be short, middle-aged, balding. bespectacled, pipe-smoking, received pronunciation of speech, and a man of principle.

[Lateralthinking1]

When I first became aware of something called politics, it was the 1970s. I was in a Conservative area. I'd had some of the One Nation values instilled into me but didn't like modern Conservatism. The Labour Party did not seem to be the answer. It was inept and corrupt. It had done a lot to make ordinary lives more difficult rather than better. I instinctively took to the Liberals.

My thinking wasn't coherent. Lloyd George became the hero because of his record on social welfare. I liked the green radicalism of what was then modern Liberalism. Such was my abhorrence of the Labour record in the 1970s, I would have been more likely given just two choices to have voted Conservative in 1979 had I had the vote. In 1981 the SDP was formed and I became a founder member. Everyone who joined in that year was labelled such. In terms of economics, I had a naive notion that Conservatives would increasingly be prepared to compromise. After all, it was the modern world. That idea very quickly went out of the window.

By 1984, at 21, I was very much more to the left. Attlee was the new hero. I was in Yorkshire during the miners strike and veered towards left-wing culture. Under Kinnock who I was convinced by for a long time, Labour started to look good. I identified with parts of the Labour left and right but I still preferred the SDP. I still thought they and the Liberals were the answer even when the in-fighting started. I wasn't anti Smith or Blair at the start. I didn't take to either though as much as I had taken to Kinnock before we knew about him. So in each election then, I voted SDP or Liberal or whatever they happened to be called at the time.

Initially I liked Steel but I was eventually glad to see him go. Initially I liked Jenkins but I was eventually glad to see him go. Initially I liked Ashdown but I was eventually glad to see him go. I was always for Williams but 2012 might be the end of that one given her silence this week. I did vote Labour in one London election. I never voted for New Labour. There was a European election in which the Greens got 15%. I was one of the 15% in that election. But when Charles Kennedy became leader, I was a strong supporter of the Liberals again. We all know what happened then. Ming also seemed alright until he was unceremoniously ditched.

So by the middle of the last decade, it must have been 25 years in which I had voted in every national, European, London and local election for the SDP and the Liberals barring two. And then Clegg took over. As soon as he did so, I stopped. I've voted Green in every election since. Currently as we await the London election, it's Green or spoling the ballot paper. I'm tempted by the latter.

[french frank]

Preferably she should be short, middle-aged, balding. bespectacled, pipe-smoking, received pronunciation of speech, and a man of principle.

But, wouldn't I have to join the Labour Party first?

[Serial_Apologist]

But, wouldn't I have to join the Labour Party first?

[Serial_Apologist]

When I first became aware of something called politics, it was the 1970s. I was in a Conservative area. I'd had some of the One Nation values instilled into me but didn't like modern Conservatism. The Labour Party did not seem to be the answer. It was inept and corrupt. It had done a lot to make ordinary lives more difficult rather than better. I instinctively took to the Liberals.

My thinking wasn't coherent. Lloyd George became the hero because of his record on social welfare. I liked the green radicalism of what was then modern Liberalism. Such was my abhorrence of the Labour record in the 1970s, I would have been more likely given just two choices to have voted Conservative in 1979 had I had the vote. In 1981 the SDP was formed and I became a founder member. Everyone who joined in that year was labelled such. In terms of economics, I had a naive notion that Conservatives would increasingly be prepared to compromise. After all, it was the modern world. That idea very quickly went out of the window.

By 1984, I was very much more to the left. Attlee was the new hero. I was in Yorkshire during the miners strike and veered towards left-wing culture. Under Kinnock who I was convinced by for a long time, Labour started to look good. I identified with parts of the Labour left and right but I still preferred the SDP. I still thought they and the Liberals were the answer even when the in-fighting started. I wasn't anti Smith or Blair at the start. I didn't take to either though as much as I had taken to Kinnock before we knew about him. So at every election, I voted SDP or Liberal or whatever they happened to be called at the time.

Initially I liked Steel but I was eventually glad to see him go. Initially I liked Jenkins but I was eventually glad to see him go. Initially I liked Ashdown but I was eventually glad to see him go. I was always for Williams but 2012 might be the end of that one given her silence this week. I did vote Labour in one London election. I never voted for New Labour. And when Charles Kennedy became leader, I was a very strong supporter, but we all know what happened then.

There was a European election in which the Greens got 15%. I was one of the 15% in that election. It was many years before I voted Green again. Ming seemed alright. So by the middle of the last decade, it must have been a good 25 years in which I had voted in every national, European, London and local election for the SDP and the Liberals barring two. And then Clegg took over. As soon as he did so, I stopped. I've voted Green in every election since. Currently as we await the London election, it's Green or spoling the ballot paper. I'm tempted by the latter.

I'm torn between Labour and the Greens this time around. Jenny Jones will I believe make an excellent Green candidate in the forthcoming Mayoral election, Lat.

[Lateralthinking1]

Yes, thanks Serial_Apologist. After the last London election - incidentally I voted against the introduction of a London mayor on the grounds that it would be an ego trip - I wrote to Caroline Lucas. I said that I was disappointed that there had been nothing about the protection of the green belt in the leaflet. I also wrote to the other main parties saying the same. Labour, the Tories and the Lib Dems didn't bother to reply. I did get four lines from UKIP which were unconvincing to say the least. I wasn't surprised.

And the letter issued by Caroline's office was prompt, detailed and reassuring. I was really pleased. I do have a lot of respect for her. I think she is an absolute credit to the Green Party and represents exactly how an MP should be. And I notice that Jenny has made a point of saying that she believes that green spaces around housing should have the same protection as back gardens. That might be the thing that gets her my vote although my gut instinct is to give a signal that I feel the system has pushed me out.

[scottycelt]

In 1981 the SDP was formed and I became a founder member. Everyone who joined in that year was labelled such.

I remember it well, Lat ... in fact I may well still have the official certificate somewhere indicating my pivotal role in founding the Party. So eat your hearts out, self-aggrandising David Owen and Shirley Williams!

The SDP must have had more founder-members than any other organisation in history ...

[MrGongGong]

I didn't say a government, but a party. Labour under Blair introduced tuition fees when they said they wouldn't, raised tuition fees when they said they wouldn't, continued with various 'privatisations' (including in the NHS). I don't think you can count on Labour to keep every manifesto 'promise' in the future either.

Not that that will put people off voting Labour ... (to which I would add, nor should it).

This argument somehow misses the point entirely IMV
At the last election the Lib Dems positioned themselves and sold themselves as being significantly different to the other two parties, cleggers did lots of "look at them, squabbling amongst themselves, vote for me for a radical alternative" etc
So in a way , what you are saying is that they are simply just like the rest which is why so many of us are completely disillusioned with the whole thing.

You can't sell yourself on the grounds of being honest and ethical and then abandon that when you get a sniff of power.

[scottycelt]

Every political party sells itself as honest and ethical and they all make some promises in opposition that they are most unlikely to be able to keep when in power. Surely everyone is aware of that?

However, the Liberal Democrats did not even gain power ... they became the junior party of a governing Coalition.

To then still expect them to deliver on every pre-election promise is both patently unfair and wholly unrealistic.