Room 101 - what single aspect of modern life should be consigned to oblivion?

[Lateralthinking1]

Decantor, as others have said, 158 is a great post, with a lucid, credible, explanation. May I please take issue with you on one point?

The word "transistor" was coined by one of those involved in its development as a portmanteau of "transfer" and "resistor". The ending -or was given to be consistent with other electronic devices, eg resistor, capacitor, inductor and thermistor.

This of course now raises the question of why these terms don't end in -er, especially when one remembers the old name for capacitor was "condenser".

Probably as previously indicated - 161 and 162 - they are post Norman French.

[jean]

I'm using the online complete OED, which is invaluable for citations.

It gives

1751 J. Bass True Narr. Unhappy Contention 8, I‥offered to join with them, in calling in an advisory Council, the one half chosen by them, and the other by myself.

and there's no arguing with that, unless you can find something earlier.

[Lateralthinking1]

I'm using the online complete OED.

Ah, but that is "advisory" isn't it - not "advisor" which we know wasn't there as recently as 1941.

OECD 2010 - Quote - "It (advisory) first emerged as a noun in the 1930s in reference to a severe weather warning.... and was considered to be an American usage until recently....the use became more widely known......parental stickers.....1990s... .etc".

It is helpful to know how the "er" words arrived c. 1400s and the "or" words from the Latin, often after. That tells us what it should be. This tells us what it shouldn't be unless you want to accept the largely post-1990 (wholly post-1930) Americanism.

I would think that your 1800s usage of advisory is wholly adjectival and hence not related to the supposed noun. In fact, I know it is because of serial-apologist's 1941 dictionary. Do you not agree?

[jean]

The self-appointed regulators...were responsible for giving us spellings such as debt and verdict...

I'd have said the addition of a b to the OE det or dette was pedantry far ahead of plumping for -ize rather than -ise, but while poking around in the OED I found this:

1548–9 Bk. Common Prayer Offices 20 To declare his debtes, what he oweth.

a1616 Shakespeare Taming of Shrew (1623) iv. iv. 24 Hauing com to Padua To gather in some debts.

[jean]

Ah, but that is "advisory" isn't it - not "advisor" which we know wasn't there as recently as 1941.

I would think that your 1800s usage of advisory is wholly adjectival and hence not related to the supposed noun.

Yes indeed - but what I mean is that the existence of the adjective advisory will lead people to think that the correct spelling for the noun is advisor.

Not all the sorts of choices people make when deciding how to spell things are fully informed by etymology.

[Lateralthinking1]

Yes - what I mean is that the existence of the adjective advisory will lead people to think that the correct spelling for the noun is advisor.

Yes but with respect that is what I have been saying for nearly twenty hours. Unless you want to say that an adjective sort of exists in the 1800s, we have an adjectival noun first in the 1930s, via America, it becomes an actual noun via that adjectival noun from America in the 1990s, and then suddenly for no reason at all the man on the street says "I know, lets go back to the 1800s and address the absence for a hundred years". That didn't happen. Using distant history distorts the journey that was actually made and excuses those who feel wrongly that the word "advisor" has been correct since time began.

1316 yesterday - My OED explains that "advisory" is North American and was first introduced into Britain in the 1930s for weather forecasts. Far too late for any real root meaning. Along with "advisory", the OED also permits "advisor" but as an afterthought in brackets. Again, N American in original usage. It says that "adviser", which is not in brackets, is more common. "Advisor", it adds, "can" be used more formally than "adviser". As with "advisory", I think it very likely that "advisor" in Britain only begins in the 1930s.

1417 yesterday - Does this not then pretty well confirm that (a) "advisor" emerged late from "advisory" and (b) taking the comments of the current OED into account, your OED from 1941 might have been one of the first to have included "advisory"?

(1930s weather forecasts - first British use of "advisory" from the American - later decades onto "advisor" with "adviser" retained for main usage)

I feel that my summary was about right. I say "about" because "miser" is 1400s and not 1500s. "Adviser" appears to be from the same period. "Sponsor" and "censor" are from the 16th and 17th centuries as nouns and then one at least becomes a verb in the 19th century. They are definitely later. So I think we could suggest that "ser" came first and "sor" later. How much later? Oh, as a noun plus verb, when the United States was becoming something like the country we know and love. That is not to say in 2012 we should be sticking religiously to what happened in the 1400s. However, I could only be happy with "advisor" if it wasn't as recent as the late 20th century, as now seems to have been confirmed, and if it hadn't take off, as it probably did, because of Tipper Gore. That is very late indeed and very American!

(1990s parental guidance stickers - enhanced use of "advisory" leading to very enhanced use of "advisor" but "adviser" still retained for main usage)

"Advisor" is in brackets in mine. It isn't in yours at all. It beats "color" as a word but only marginally in my book.

[jean]

1417 yesterday - Does this not then pretty well confirm that (a) "advisor" emerged late from "advisory" and (b) taking the comments of the current OED into account, your OED from 1941 might have been one of the first to have included "advisory"?

Yes of course - I'm sorry, I wasn't around much yesterday and only skimmed the latter part of this thread, and hadn't seen that you'd already made that point.

There's no doubt that that "advisor" emerged late from "advisory". All I'm saying is that its emergence is more or less inevitable, and won't easily be stopped now!

[Lateralthinking1]

Yes of course - I'm sorry, I wasn't around much yesterday and only skimmed the latter part of this thread, and hadn't seen that you'd already made that point.

There's no doubt that that "advisor" emerged late from "advisory". All I'm saying is that its emergence is more or less inevitable, and won't easily be stopped now!

Yes, that's fine. On "won't easily be stopped", that's ok too, but I still go back to the point that for the rest of our lifetimes it will be modish. I won't be using it. The 20th century journey places "advisor" fully in context. What decantor's post does is to show us linguistically why "adviser" is correct. The combination of the two supports "adviser", to my mind beyond question.

To all intents and purposes, "advisor" really took off here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_Advisory

[subcontrabass]

1417 yesterday - Does this not then pretty well confirm that (a) "advisor" emerged late from "advisory"

OED online gives the following quotes for "advisor":

1589 A. Wingfield True Coppie Disc. 57 The gracious aspect of our dread Soueraigne‥and‥the iustice of her most rare and graue aduisors.
1604 W. Covell Modest & Reasonable Exam. Church of Eng. viii. 95 To be either inuentors, or aduisors of lawes and ordinations fit for a Church discipline, their manner of liuing doth not allowe them that wisdome.
1665 J. Quarles Citizens Flight 19 You may say, and what you say, is true, That your Advisor is as bad as you.
1687 W. Penn Reasonableness of Toleration 16 A deep Repentance for having given his Consent, and a Resolution had he liv'd to have Punished his Advisors.
1747 H. Haynes Causa Dei Contra Novatores 8, I hope‥that you and your Advisors too are now of a better Spirit.
1819 H. Ballou Lect. Serm. No. 19. 299 Though you might possibly think your advisor meant well,‥you would not follow the advice.
1839 C. Brontë Let. 11 Feb. (1995) I. 125, I trust sincerely that your medical advisor is mistaken in supposing you have any tendency to pulmonary affection.
1897 Intercollegiate Med. Jrnl. 2 79 It is common for the student's advisor to recommend the school with the large clinical faculty.
1904 M. Kelly Little Citizens 89 During the first weeks of her reign over Room 18, Miss Bailey set about providing herself with aides and advisors.
1952 R. Finlayson Schooner came to Atia i. 8 Timi‥skilfully combined the duties of secretary,‥chauffeur, advisor on inside island politics, and trusted confidant.
1971 D. Bagley Freedom Trap iii. 64 It is natural that he have an advisor to handle the investment of these funds.
2010 Searcher Feb. 32/3 If you had won this amount on the lottery you would have advisors to assist and guide you from Camelot.

[Lateralthinking1]

SCB - Your quote - OED online gives the following quotes for "advisor".

Yes so? On page 11 of the net version of "The Freedom Trap", Bagley (1971) spells caviar "caviare". I found that in 15 seconds. Goodness only knows what other delights the pages might reveal. The plot largely involves someone pretending to be South African. He himself settled in South Africa.

Finlayson (1952) was from Auckland. M Kelly (1904) invented the word "gumshoe" and was American. The 1897 Medical Journal is "intercollegiate" and almost certainly American. What Bronte's excuse is in 1839 who can say but it was a letter. That is five references in just under a century and a half, three of them non-British and one other living abroad.

H Ballou (1819) was American. H Haynes (1747) is Hopton Haynes. He left his writing for the press to put together. It was accordingly printed by his son in obedience to his father’s injunctions but, it is stated, probably against his own inclinations. The publication was hardly seen until reprinted in 1790 by the Rev. Theophilus Lindsey. So, muddle, delay, half-heartedness and Joe Soap as final "author". Many early references on your list have words that are nearly all different from the present day. I haven't researched them all (yet).

I will write the entire box about this topic from the published version of OED (2010) on another post.

[Lateralthinking1]

Oxford English Dictionary 1941 - Only refers to adviser and advisory. No advisor.

My 1970s dictionaries - Only refer to adviser and advisory. No advisor.

Oxford English Dictionary, Published Third Edition 2010 - Refers to adviser with (advisor) in brackets plus advisory.

It says:

USAGE

The spellings adviser and advisor are both correct. Adviser is more common but advisor is widely used, especially in North America. Adviser may be seen as less formal, while advisor often suggests an official position.

It also says:

WORD TRENDS

Many words once labelled as specifically North American are now just as common in British English - and advisory is a key example. Typically used as an adjective, it first emerged as a noun in the 1930s in reference to a severe weather warning issued by a meterological office, and was considered to be a specifically American usage until recently. The use became more widely known when stickers bearing the words "Parental Advisory: Explicit Contents" began to be fixed to some CDs of rock and rap music in the early 1990s. The Oxford English Corpus shows that the noun is now just as likely to be used in British English, in contexts such as travel advice. "Thailand is the latest country to be given a thumbs-down travel advisory from the British Foreign Office".

A further word on:

BRONTE - The letter was written the year after "Stancliffe's Hotel". Charlotte was 23. This is what has been said of the relatively recent revival of the manuscript by the person who revived it -

The manuscript of Stancliffe’s Hotel, which is in the Brontë Parsonage Museum, Haworth, is erratically punctuated, mainly with dashes, and has very little paragraphing, though there are gaps in the manuscript to mark changes of scene. For the convenience of the present-day reader, I have modernised punctuation, capitalisation and hyphenation, and introduced paragraphs. In several cases, where a word or part of a word seems to have been left out of the manuscript, it has been added in square brackets. Obvious spelling mistakes have been silently corrected, but archaic spellings have been preserved.

In other words, she weren't that good at spellings, were she?

[Lateralthinking1]

OK. One final go.

The earlier Britons in scb's list who wrote "advisor" - Anthony Wingfield (1589) was the Lord Lieutenant of Suffolk from 1551 to 1552, and Vice-Chamberlain of the Household in the reign of Edward VI. He participated in the defeat of the Armada and wrote about his travels abroad. William Covell (1604) was an English clergyman and writer, the author of "Polimanteia". John Quarles (1665) was an English poet who bore arms for the king in the garrison at Oxford but was subsequently punished and made to live abroad. William Penn (1687) was an English real estate entrepreneur, philosopher and founder of the Province of Pennsylvania.

All of these individuals put pen to paper during the period of Early Modern English. That was when English verbs became greater in number and were also simplified as they evolved towards their modern forms. As decantor describes, it was a period when Latin was relevant in shaping the language. Decantor says that ER had simply been applied to the basic verb-stem while in Latin -OR was added to the verb's Supine stem. "Evolved" is the word here. At the start of this period, there were many regional variations. No doubt it took some time for the language to become more consistent and settle down. And not every writer was right.

It would be tempting to suggest that Penn's belief in the "advisor" spelling took that spelling to America while the correct "adviser" was becoming fully established in England. However, this does not appear to have been the case. "American Speech", the journal of the American Dialect Society, mocked the growing popularity of the "advisor" spelling in America in 1931. It said:

“Following the advent and acceptance in this country of advisors, newspapers now occasionally mention debators.” (There are, of course, -or nouns for occupations and identifications, but they are usually not formed from verbs: doctor, debtor, proctor, author, executor, curator, donor.)"



Chart showing the use of "adviser" and "advisor" in American books

So even educated Americans in 1931 thought "advisor" quite ridiculous. It had appeared in the OED in 1899 as a reference to a new publication "The Adviser" with an unspecified country of origin. I think given the location of the uproar we can safely assume that the publication was American. What we know is that by 1941 it was not in the English OED and it may well have been dropped just at the turn of the century, once the mistake had been noted. Hope this is helpful in clarifying that "advisor" has no historical credibility. It now exists but is a dud.

[Flosshilde]

Can I nominate discussions on the origins of the word/spelling of 'adviser' & 'advisory' for Room 101?

[Lateralthinking1]

Can I nominate discussions on the origins of the word/spelling of 'adviser' & 'advisory' for Room 101?

Well, I was rather hoping that someone might squeak "Lateral, you are right, cheers for doing that for us". But alas the tone is more likely to be one of no comment and sour old grapes. Or that little back flick off the foot while the ref isn't watching. The British eh? Makes ya proud.

[Nick Armstrong]

Can I nominate discussions on the origins of the word/spelling of 'adviser' & 'advisory' for Room 101?

You took the idea right out of my brain, Flossie!!



I was just about to say that!

Errr... gentles all, shall we move on?

Unfortunately, I'm in an extremely good mood and cannot presently think of anything else for Room 101

But someone must have something, surely?!