Musical pauses

[Alison]

I've always been fascinated by pauses in music.

A few questions -

What exactly is an 'agogic' pause ? As opposed to just a pause ?

...... and what about a Luftpause ?


Were I good enough to play piano in public I'm sure I'd be slated for overdoing pauses.

Not sure why, a sort of Shura Cherkassky influence maybe.

Any musical examples to illustrate any of the above gratefully received.

[Pabmusic]

I've always been fascinated by pauses in music.

A few questions -

What exactly is an 'agogic' pause ? As opposed to just a pause ?

...... and what about a Luftpause?

An agogic pause would be any notes deliberately emphasised by holding them back - for instance, the first three notes of the main theme of the Blue Danube. It's not really different from a heavy rallentando. On the other hand, a luftpause is a 'light' pause, a 'quick breath' type of thing.

[amateur51]

Nice thread, Alison - many thanks

From what I recall, Alfred Brendel is 'big' on pauses, 'air around the notes', 'accented pauses', that sort of thing. His opening movement of Schubert piano sonata D.960 is full of pauses taken that bit longer than a pianist who I've always felt was 'anti-pause', Maurizio Pollini.

I'm not a musician, I'm a listener, so I may be talking technical nonsense, but that's what I hear - and Brendel has spoken about this - I must check his books for any written thoughts.

[Nick Armstrong]

Nice thread, Alison - many thanks

From what I recall, Alfred Brendel is 'big' on pauses, 'air around the notes', 'accented pauses', that sort of thing. His opening movement of Schubert piano sonata D.960 is full of pauses taken that bit longer than a pianist who I've always felt was 'anti-pause', Maurizio Pollini.

I'm not a musician, I'm a listener, so I may be talking technical nonsense, but that's what I hear - and Brendel has spoken about this - I must check his books for any written thoughts.

How interesting you said that, ammy. The first thing that Alison's post made me think of was the Pollini recording of D959... In the last movement when the heavenly melody returns to face heartstopping random gaps in the music, Pollini more than any other pianist I've heard just lingers on the pauses.... they sound like black holes of nothingness, chilling breaks in the melodic flow.... There's silence used for musical and psychological effect!

[amateur51]

How interesting you said that, ammy. The first thing that Alison's post made me think of was the Pollini recording of D959... In the last movement when the heavenly melody returns to face heartstopping random gaps in the music, Pollini more than any other pianist I've heard just lingers on the pauses.... they sound like black holes of nothingness, chilling breaks in the melodic flow.... There's silence used for musical and psychological effect!

Fascinating stuff, Caliban - I shall investigate further - triffic thread

[decantor]

'Agogic' really refers to a pause (or pauses, or note-lengthenings) that is intended to increase the impact of the following a tempo: it's the wind-up effect, building expectation by delay, and works exactly as Pabmusic describes in #2. Theoretically there should be an antonym, referring to a pause that winds down (like any concluding rall): the obvious term is 'pompic', but nobody seems to have invented it yet. Anyone know what term is used? Apart from rallentando, that is.

[Nick Armstrong]

Fascinating stuff, Caliban - I shall investigate further - triffic thread

It's this performance, mind: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Schubert-Pia...957918&sr=8-14

The mvt I spoke about available separately here, in the remastered "Originals" re-release, for less than the price of a pint http://www.amazon.co.uk/Schubert-Pia...9958375&sr=8-1

I think he's re-recorded it since, haven't heard that...

[jayne lee wilson]

The locus classicus for the pause, both agogic and luftpausen, must be Richter playing Schubert D.894...

and don't get me started on the various approaches to Bruckner...
I think we need a whole new lexicon.

[Pabmusic]

'Agogic' really refers to a pause (or pauses, or note-lengthenings) that is intended to increase the impact of the following a tempo: ...the obvious term is 'pompic', but nobody seems to have invented it yet.

I think you just have! No, I've not heard anything other than molto rall. or molto rit. Except Percy Grainger's 'slow up hugely' and the like.

[salymap]

I've always preferred Brendel in Schubert D960 so perhaps that's why, the pauses. A fascinating subject, not often discussed here.

[Tapiola]

Nice thread, Alison - many thanks

From what I recall, Alfred Brendel is 'big' on pauses, 'air around the notes', 'accented pauses', that sort of thing. His opening movement of Schubert piano sonata D.960 is full of pauses taken that bit longer than a pianist who I've always felt was 'anti-pause', Maurizio Pollini.

Ams, in this context do you know any of Richter's recordings of D960 (or of D894 for that matter)?

[gradus]

Odd how emotionally powerful a pause can be. For example Ashkenazy with Previn in the slow movt of Rach 3 momentarily pauses at the top of a phrase and it is how I always want it played - it just seems a perfect reading of the music.

[Nick Armstrong]

Odd how emotionally powerful a pause can be. For example Ashkenazy with Previn in the slow movt of Rach 3 momentarily pauses at the top of a phrase and it is how I always want it played - it just seems a perfect reading of the music.

Likewise, Bruno Walter in his Columbia SO reading of Beethoven 6 leaves a pause at the end of the very opening phrase which somehow doesn't stop the music, it's just like a momentary savouring of that first lungful of fresh country air... I miss it in every other performance.

I've always preferred Brendel in Schubert D960 so perhaps that's why, the pauses. A fascinating subject, not often discussed here.

I thought of Alison's thread when this subject came up on Essential Classics this morning. The truly excellent Richard Coles mentioned Michelangeli's Debussy and Rob Cowan quoted Martha Argerich as saying that Michelangeli taught her the value of silence in music, and that old Arturo was a master of the musical pause... I'm sure his Debussy recordings exemplify that, although I haven't listened to them lately...

[Pabmusic]

[COLOR="#0000FF"]Likewise, Bruno Walter in his Columbia SO reading of Beethoven 6 leaves a pause at the end of the very opening phrase which somehow doesn't stop the music, it's just like a momentary savouring of that first lungful of fresh country air... I miss it in every other performance.

This is a notorious pause (it is marked in the score). It's easy enough to bring off adequately, but conductors shouldn't be content with 'adequate'. I think you're a little hard on 'every other' conductor, but it is not easy to handle it and yet make it seem so natural that it doesn't stand out - after all, you don't want to halt the momentum so near the beginning. Walter does it beautifully, but so do Toscannini and Boult in my view.

Another awkward pause - easy enough at one level, but difficult to make really tell - occurs at the beginning of Cockaigne (bar 3).

[jayne lee wilson]

Should you feel my opinion is worth respecting, the Richter D.894 recorded in Germany in 12/79 (that's all the info Philips give) has a superior sound and a bigger, fuller, piano tone than the one in the Brilliant Classics box (92229) dated 3/5/78 apparently recorded in Russia. The German one is slightly slower (1st movements - 26'51/26'18) but the differences are sufficient to make one believe they really are different performances (always a tricky matter...)
Availability...questionable.

The readings are closely similar in their approach, those endless pauses (neither agogic nor luftpausen really, more a sonic meditation) in the 1st movement were also evident in his 1989 RFH recital of D.894, which I have a feeling has appeared on BBC Legends... "IIRC", not sure.

Of the 2 D.960s I have here, the 1972 one on Regis has better sound, but the 31/11/1961 Russian Gostelradiofund one on Brilliant is a little quicker and tighter... I would choose the Regis one (originally on Ariola Eurodisc).

Ams, in this context do you know any of Richter's recordings of D960 (or of D894 for that matter)?