Dawkins Demolished

[Serial_Apologist]

I think though that there is almost a logical discrepancy between the Christian "fill your hearts with love and joy wherever you go" and "oh by the way,

I thought you were going to go on to say, "... but not *that* kind of love"

The main problem with Christianity is that it upholds the dualistic theory of human nature that bedevils Western culture: the separation of love from sexuality that starts in puritanism and ends in prurience.

In Zen they claim that with insight, once the "me/myself" dualism is "seen through" for what it is - an intellectual dodge - away with it goes the idea of controller/controlled, as applied to the psyche... and the soma. As a Zen master is said to have replied, when asked what is the difference, before and after? - "Much the same, except two inches off the ground"

even a spouse

[Lateralthinking1]

I thought you were going to go on to say, "... but not *that* kind of love" The main problem with Christianity is that it upholds the dualistic theory of human nature that bedevils Western culture: the separation of love from sexuality that starts in puritanism and ends in prurience. In Zen they claim that with insight, once the "me/myself" dualism is "seen through" for what it is - an intellectual dodge - away with it goes the idea of controller/controlled, as applied to the psyche... and the soma. As a Zen master is said to have replied, when asked what is the difference, before and after? - "Much the same, except two inches off the ground"

I'm pleased S-A you got the spouse comment. I don't think I am even in elementary Zen school so you credit with me more ability for understanding than I have. In linguistic use it seems to me that there is a big difference between anyone's "I" and "me". Actually more than linguistically. "I" and "me" tend to come from different places. There is also a big difference between "me" and "myself" with "myself", a word that I wouldn't often choose, frequently being used as a big "I". It generally makes me wary. I do "I" more than "me" and have to work hard to temper it, not least because it can look over-confident while being a symptom of quite the opposite. I will leave it to you - or if not "the you" - to make some Zennish sense of it. More generally, Zen sounds good to me.

You are right about sex and puritanism but I have a slightly unfashionable angle on it. Neil Finn of Crowded House. Glastonbury Festival. Two thousand and something. Approximate quote - "And all of you will be making love in the tents tonight - at least you will call it love". It was mainly aimed at the teenagers. If he was hoping to be a favourite uncle, it wasn't the best way. A 40-something friend who was there in a different group observed when we were back in work "yeah, he's ok, but he's a bit sarcastic, even supercilious, I don't take to him much". I agreed but agreed with Finn too. Sure, it is presumptious to assess the young and decide what is love and what it isn't. At the same time, in what is still an unmeasured backlash against Victoriana, a lot of sex isn't what would easily be called love. The decoupling is as much the consequence of the 1960s as a religious earlier century.

We have a society in which people eventually settle down with someone, often as late as 30 or 40. The most active years of sex are seen by many as a time for freedom, for which read partial or transient commitment. Those who don't adhere to the zeitgeist must be Christian or something. To hold a steadier non-religious view when young is regarded as very strange. I feel with hindsight that this is a very big burden on many. I write as someone who initially started very steady and then felt under pressure for a while to conform with the modern mantra. I think I was more right earlier on. Actually I did at the time. It wasn't for me. Love can be expressed physically but I could think of perhaps ten types of expression that would be truer to it. It is sad that many will think someone is trying to be an Archbishop simply by saying it. Much is common sense essentially.- Lat.

[Pabmusic]

Pabmusic,

The observed diameter of the moon just happens to be approximately the same size as the observed diameter of the sun, thus making total eclipses possible. Sooner or later on these boards some religionist or another will propose that God fixed it that way so that we can enjoy the show!

Of course! Now it all falls into place!