Dawkins Demolished

[Bryn]

Maybe not in good old dogma-free atheist China, Lat ...

Don't be so silly. The GPCR ended long ago. Since 1978, despite the Party membership nominally 'remaining' atheist, China's ruling elite has gone out of its way to rebuild many Budhist and Taoist institutions, and positively promote the five officially recognised 'religions' of Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, and the two main wings of the Christian religion, Catholicism, and Protestantism. At the same time the same authorities have taken a heavy-handed approach to the 'new' 'religion' of Falun Gong.

[Flosshilde]

I know, Floss ...

However, can I continue to be blunt ... you live your own life as you see fit ... the Catholic Church has no power over you or anyone else ...

Scotty, you know that that is complete mince.

So the question must be asked ... why do you and others here get so worked up about and object to what Christians (and especially Catholics) believe?

Because the christian churches actively lobby governments not to pass legislation that would remove discrimination against me. In addition, Church of England bishops have a priviledged position as part of the legislature.

Don't you actually believe in freedom of thought and belief ... ?

Yes, of course I do. I just don't see why that belief should be imposed on me.


As usual, Scotty, you ignore the substantive part of mmy post - which is that Catholics aren't able to exercise their freedom of thought & disagree with the directions of the pope & priests - if they do, they are no longer Catholics. It's only real freedom of thought if they can do so within the church.

[Alison]

How on earth can one be CofE and NOT have a belief in God through Christ ???????


Thought you'd answered that one yourself - nobody believes it anyway do they ?

[Alison]

I was
but left the church many years ago ..............
Which is precisely WHY it's out of order for the CofE to nominally claim everyone as a member !

Although you live in a parish as far as I am aware you do not become a member of the Church of England
until you sign up on the electoral roll of your parish church.
Pleased that you've nothing against Christians ! In my locality there;s an awful lot of good christian work going on.

Visiting the sick and elderly in homes, hospitals and hospices , support for young families, practical help type visits to Bulgaria and Romania,
debt advice etc etc. And no attempt to evangelise through all this either. These are just the first things that come to mind. Of course many other people do equally fine work.

Try to think of the Church beyond Westminster Village please !

[jean]

One of the things I would like to know is what would happen if the churches formally dropped any opposition to homosexuality as long as it took place only within marriage.

I think one of the concerns is that this might still not be seen as acceptable by gay people...

I think it would be perfectly acceptable to the gay people who consider themselves Christians.

The others wouldn't care - and it would be none of their business anyway.

[Flosshilde]

Originally Posted by Lateralthinking1
One of the things I would like to know is what would happen if the churches formally dropped any opposition to homosexuality as long as it took place only within marriage.

I think one of the concerns is that this might still not be seen as acceptable by gay people...

I think it would be perfectly acceptable to the gay people who consider themselves Christians.

The others wouldn't care - and it would be none of their business anyway.

No, Jean, it is my business, because the christian churches try to impose their views on my life - look at the opposition to civil partnerships & same-sex marriage, and the repeal of Section 28, & so on & so on. You aren't satisfied with getting on with youir lives according to your beliefs - you want those beliefs to influence my life.

[jean]

No, Jean, it is my business, because the christian churches try to impose their views on my life - look at the opposition to civil partnerships & same-sex marriage, and the repeal of Section 28, & so on & so on. You aren't satisfied with getting on with youir lives according to your beliefs - you want those beliefs to influence my life.

You're not talking about the point I'm answering, Flosshilde.

If, as lateralthinking suggests, the churches formally dropped any opposition to homosexuality as long as it took place only within marriage, then homosexual relationships would be in exactly the same position as heterosexual relationships are now.

The church isn't trying to stop you from contracting a civil partnership, and I'd be very surprised to hear thast you were anxious to get married in church.

[Flosshilde]

The church isn't trying to stop you from contracting a civil partnership, and I'd be very surprised to hear thast you were anxious to get married in church.

The christian churches did their damndest to stop me contracting a civil partnership by trying to stop the legislation, and they are trying to prevent me getting married (which doesn't have to be in a church, or even religious) by campaigning against proposed legislation.

What is it that you don't understand about GET OUT OF MY LIFE!

[amateur51]

I think the main point is that us non-Christians are a bit fed up with the church having an undue influence on the rest of society, disestablishment would suit both Christians and non-Christians alike

YAYYY!!

[Alison]

Even Richard and Giles agreed on that. Seems a while ago now.

[amateur51]

It was never intended to be and has never claimed to be so!

Couldn't really give a fart in a hurricane about that really, scotty - it's the being outide the secular law when it suits/doesn't suit them that I can't stomach

[amateur51]

I was
but left the church many years ago ..............
Which is precisely WHY it's out of order for the CofE to nominally claim everyone as a member !
Neither of my two children was christened but as the church is established they will claim them as members
i've nothing against Christians BUT for us all to be assumed to be is not OK at all

[jean]

The christian churches did their damndest to stop me contracting a civil partnership by trying to stop the legislation...

They didn't succeed though, did they? Isn't that the point?

(Though it still isn't the point of lateralthinking's that I was answering.)

Remembering the heyday of 1970s feminism and how we used to speak of marriage as licenced prostitution, I am quite surprised at the enthusiasm of some lesbians for getting married.

[amateur51]

The christian churches did their damndest to stop me contracting a civil partnership by trying to stop the legislation, and they are trying to prevent me getting married (which doesn't have to be in a church, or even religious) by campaigning against proposed legislation.

What is it that you don't understand about GET OUT OF MY LIFE!

Way to go, Flossie!

[amateur51]

They didn't succeed though, did they? Isn't that the point?

(Though it still isn't the point of lateralthinking's that I was answering.)

Remembering the heyday of 1970s feminism and how we used to speak of marriage as licenced prostitution, I am quite surprised at the enthusiasm of some lesbians for getting married.

Erm, I think they're getting married to other lesbians, rather than getting married to men, which was what the licenced prostitution line was about.