Dawkins Demolished

[vinteuil]

Scotty, you've made this sort of comment before, & it is (as so many of your comments on this topic are) rather disingenuous. What you are saying is that a Catholic is only free to exercise their conscience by leaving the catholic church - they can't decide that the pope or priest is wrong, & still be part of the church, which is not the same as being "free to be guided by their own consciences" as Ferret Fancy put it.

Most of the intelligent Catholics I know think that the Pope and many priests are wrong about lots of things.
They still consider themselves to be Catholic.

Probably scottycelt thinks they are in error...

[Lateralthinking1]

One of the things I would like to know is what would happen if the churches formally dropped any opposition to homosexuality as long as it took place only within marriage.

I think one of the concerns is that this might still not be seen as acceptable by gay people. If there was then a push towards all gay people being endorsed then the churches would be forced into having to endorse all heterosexuals.

To my mind, an army of sexually active people of all persuasions outside marriage marching on Rome etc demanding endorsement would be totally unacceptable. Actually, it would be a declaration by them of war and fascist in character.

Essentially it would be a ruse to tear the churches, and hence freedom of belief, apart. Revenge is not a wonderful thing.

[MrGongGong]

so maybe it should go like this

I believe in God the Father Almighty,.......... well I sort of do sometimes
Maker of heaven and earth:............ not really as it says in the book but maybe including evolution (until a better theory comes along) ?
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,........... but not literally you understand , I mean son as I might shout at football "get in my son"
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,........... but only in a metaphorical sense you understand
Born of the Virgin Mary,.......... not really a virgin but a good woman all the same
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,..............I go along with this
Was crucified, dead, and buried:.............or maybe he was in a coma ?
He descended into hell;.......... not a real place you understand
The third day he rose again from the dead;.......... well not really "dead" as in "brain dead" but more like hibernation
He ascended into heaven,...........or could have done a rather neat David Blaine style trick ?
And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;.............but he is a full size Jesus
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.........but no problem if you don't do good stuff as we all make mistakes
I believe in the Holy Ghost;................ in a non supernatural sense you understand
The holy Catholick Church;........... that's in a non-Roman sense of course
The Communion of Saints;........ well only the good ones and i'm not sure about the whole relics gig
The Forgiveness of sins;........... i'm up for this one
The Resurrection of the body,........ would be nice but i'm not holding my breath
And the Life everlasting............. that's life (Jim ?) but not really as we know it
Amen............but not women of course as that's not part of the tradition !!!

[scottycelt]

Most of the intelligent Catholics I know think that the Pope and many priests are wrong about lots of things.
They still consider themselves to be Catholic.

Probably scottycelt thinks they are in error...

'Intelligent Catholics' ... so I take it the ones whom you don't know or don't agree with are to be classed as 'unintelligent''?

Tony Blair called himself a Socialist and Ken Clarke still thinks he's a Conservative ... some of we thickos are more impressed with substance rather than labels..

[vinteuil]

I take it the scottycelt world-view cannot accept that one can be intelligent, Catholic, and disagree with the Pope?

[scottycelt]

I take it the scottycelt world-view cannot accept that one can be intelligent, Catholic, and disagree with the Pope?

Scottycelt doesn't have a 'world-view' on anything never mind matters of personal conviction ...

One can certainly be intelligent and disagree strongly with the Pope and the teachings of the Church, but whether one can, in all conscience, be so, and yet still remain a member of this ruling (non-democratic) Church, is a matter for that person only to resolve.

I'm genuinely astonished that some self-styled intellectuals in particular appear to view the Catholic Church as just another democratic institution?

It was never intended to be and has never claimed to be so!

[Lateralthinking1]

I think the main point is that us non-Christians are a bit fed up with the church having an undue influence on the rest of society, disestablishment would suit both Christians and non-Christians alike

You speak for yourself there.

I'm C of E, don't go to church, rarely read the bible, rarely pray, do have a vague belief in God, not necessarily through Christ, and try my utmost to see where common ground can be found rather than seeking conflict (except with big business and totalitarianism).

What exactly is a non-Christian? I've never met anyone who has taken formal steps to renounce their religion and become an atheist. How do you commit to atheism formally and who has ever done so?

I think it's all nonsense frankly. And I'm definitely NOT for disestablishment. Reform yes. Tearing apart no thanks.

[MrGongGong]

You speak for yourself there.

I'm C of E, don't go to church, rarely read the bible, rarely pray, do have a vague belief in God, not necessarily through Christ, and try my utmost to see where common ground can be found rather than seeking conflict (except with big business and totalitarianism).

What exactly is a non-Christian? I've never met anyone who has taken formal steps to renounce their religion and become atheist. How do you commit to atheism formally and who has ever done so?

I think it's all nonsense frankly. And I'm definitely NOT for disestablishment.

How on earth can one be CofE and NOT have a belief in God through Christ ???????
I'm slightly pregnant myself !!!
One doesn't need to take "formal steps" if one doesn't have one in the first place ...........

[Lateralthinking1]

You weren't christened? Nothing on the birth certificate?

[MrGongGong]

You weren't christened? Nothing on the birth certificate?

I was
but left the church many years ago ..............
Which is precisely WHY it's out of order for the CofE to nominally claim everyone as a member !
Neither of my two children was christened but as the church is established they will claim them as members
i've nothing against Christians BUT for us all to be assumed to be is not OK at all

[Lateralthinking1]

I was
but left the church many years ago ..............
Which is precisely WHY it's out of order for the CofE to nominally claim everyone as a member !
Neither of my two children was christened but as the church is established they will claim them as members
i've nothing against Christians BUT for us all to be assumed to be is not OK at all

Mr GG - Maybe you are more nuanced in this than me. It wouldn't be the first time on something. Maybe you aren't.

Sorry but how are your children claimed as members of the established church when Jews, Muslims, etc aren't? Are you saying that having no religion is automatically taken to be Protestantism or are you sort of sweeping this into a more encompassing idea, ie Jews and Muslims are also "C of E" etc if they are British because the church is established. I don't think I could buy the latter - Catholics wouldn't - and even the former seems questionable.

When you say you "left", is there a procedure to delete it from your records? Or is it that you stopped believing and stopped going to church? If it is the latter, then it is all perception, isn't it. We are in the same position except I was never a regular church attender and believe a bit.

If I'm asked by customs about my religion, I say Christian. You might say atheist but I'm likely to get home sooner.

[MrGongGong]

actually I say

NONE ! (of their business anyway !)

[Bryn]

I am truly grateful to my intended godfather who did a runner to South Africa before the dirty deed of Christening was due to be done. I thereby avoided ever being Christened. Lucky, lucky me! Both my parents claimed to be Christian, my mother sort of C of E (though I cannot recall her ever actually attending a C of E church service) and my father took up Methodism in his thirties and sort of stuck with it to his end. I was saved at the age of seven when I was given a Humanist pamphlet in the school playground. I never formally took up Humanism, but atheism is for me an Occam's razor cut above any religion.

[Lateralthinking1]

Mr GG - Well in that case your children will say none except in their case it will be correct (and in Bryn's).

[scottycelt]

Mr GG -...If I'm asked by customs about my religion, I say Christian. You might say atheist but I'm likely to get home sooner.

Maybe not in good old dogma-free atheist China, Lat ...