Dawkins Demolished

[Bryn]

You do have a point regarding 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'

Is shooting dead a gunman (or gunwoman to satisfy the PC-types among us ) who is threatening to spray innocent people with bullets ever justified? The huge majority of people, whether Christian or not, would argue that, sadly, sometimes it is. Christ was surely referring to killing for wholly selfish and personal motives ...

Why bring JC into this. I thought the Ten Commandment s somewhat pre-dated that particular biblical character.

[scottycelt]

Why bring JC into this. I thought the Ten Commandment s somewhat pre-dated that particular biblical character.

The issue was Christian attitudes to killing and I merely referred to the teachings of Christ ... seemed sort of logical and wholly pertinent in the circumstances?

[Lateralthinking1]

Go placidly amidst the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexatious to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time. Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass. Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

[scottycelt]

Go placidly amidst the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexatious to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time. Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass. Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

Can't argue with all that, Lat ... but what's this about something alien called 'labors'? ...

[Lateralthinking1]

Yes, it's American. It is the only writing both discovered at Adlai Stevenson's deathbed and recorded by Leonard Nimoy of Star Trek. Best not to go for that version though.

I really like it in its original sense - it reminds me a little of the Shakers (Simple Gifts etc) - even though it became "pop art".

Here's the full story - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desiderata

[Bryn]

Can't argue with all that, Lat ... but what's this about something alien called 'labors'? ...

Well what do you expect from (other side of) Pond life like Ehrmann?

[MrGongGong]

You do have a point regarding 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'

Is shooting dead a gunman (or gunwoman to satisfy the PC-types among us ) who is threatening to spray innocent people with bullets ever justified? The huge majority of people, whether Christian or not, would argue that, sadly, sometimes it is. Christ was surely referring to killing for wholly selfish and personal motives though there are some who might prefer to take a purist view and claim that killing is wrong in any circumstances, even if it saves poor old Granny being battered to death by some thug with a hammer. These same people would not have fought the Nazis (as some refused to do) on moral grounds. Difficult choices!

Your second point is frankly ridiculous, where you appear to suggest that Christians are to blame when others 'attack' and 'marginalise' them for wishing to pray for all combatants in battle.

Maybe you didn't actually mean to suggest that ... ?

Well if you believe the bible then shooting anyone at anytime is simply wrong. (not something that I would go along with , but then I don't believe that the bible is the word of god etc etc )

The second point (which I could have probably made better I know ) is that the CofE is so (by the fact that it is established) "in bed" with politics and the state that its seen as a minority view within the church to oppose the military which , given the teachings of Jesus, is "frankly ridiculous"

[scottycelt]

< ... listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant ... >

Gee, pal, thanks for that, that's real magnanimous of you ...

[Flosshilde]

A Metal thread on this site would be fun.............

Yes, I do like a bit of Lurex. Adds such sparkle to life.

[Flosshilde]

You do have a point regarding 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'

Is shooting dead a gunman (or gunwoman to satisfy the PC-types among us ) who is threatening to spray innocent people with bullets ever justified?

Yes, but not to kill - it's possible to disarm them.

[Richard Tarleton]

Yes, but not to kill - it's possible to disarm them.

Hmmm, yes, in today's world of suicide bombers our security forces are taught to shoot to kill. An injured, er, person can still detonate a bomb.

[MrGongGong]

Hmmm, yes, in today's world of suicide bombers our security forces are taught to shoot to kill. An injured, er, person can still detonate a bomb.

Or even an innocent man at Stockwell ?

[french frank]

Or even an innocent man at Stockwell ?

Do you enquire of someone first whether he is a suicide bomber, a hoaxer or a totally innocent person? Or just wait to see?

Second thought: Aren't we off topic?

[amateur51]

Hmmm, yes, in today's world of suicide bombers our security forces are taught to shoot to kill. An injured, er, person can still detonate a bomb.

A rather high risk strategy, what with the Met's current strike record being what it is

A dead innocent can not acknowledge an apology

Jean Charles de Menezes

Later: Mr GG got there first in #282 ;ok:

[amateur51]

Do you enquire of someone first whether he is a suicide bomber, a hoaxer or a totally innocent person? Or just wait to see?

Second thought: Aren't we off topic?

Well it depends on whether or not she fits the description that you were given, french frank