Is the Nanny State telling tales?

[scottycelt]

Oh dear, scotty! That some men have demeaning jobs is not the topic under discussion.

Are you telling me that because of my dangly bits I am not allowed to comment on the subject in hand?

Keep to the point, old chap

Well, I loved my mum reading me fairy-tales as a kiddie, Ams, and the scarier and more horrifying the better, as far as I was concerned!

Apart from the entertainment value, fairy tales are a good way of educating kids early on that there can be nasty men and women out there as well as handsome princes and beautiful princesses.

In any case, how dare some adults try and deprive children of those wonderful, magical, irreplaceable early years!

[Flosshilde]

To go back to the original post, parents objecting to 'nasty' stories for children is nothing new - I encountered them as a children's librarian in the 70s.

& as has been mentioned the earliest/original versions of some stories can be pretty horrific - how about Sleeping Beauty being raped by her handsome prince while she's still in a coma, giving birth, & not waking up until one of the children sucks her thumb mistaking it for her nipple, & draws out the splinter from the spindle? Or Cinderella's step sisters being forced to put on red-hot metal shoes & dance until they dropped dead? (Cinderella, incidentally, in German is called something like 'ashen-pussy' - nothing to do with cats - from sitting in the hearth)

[Anna]

If I were a woman, one of the most 'demeaning' things would be men constantly purporting to speak on my behalf as if I didn't have the ability to do so myself ...

OMG, I suddenly love scotty, what a pillar of common sense!

[Simon]

Full marks to you, doversoul, IIMSS, for coming back and expanding your points for us. That's what makes this sort of MB worthwhile - though I have to say that I'm not quite sure what you mean with your reference to Ladybird Books!

I still can't accept most of your comments as particularly valid, but that isn't important.

bws S-S!

[Anna]

I still can't accept most of your comments as particularly valid, but that isn't important.bws S-S!

Nor can I, but that is important if Dover still believes in fairy tales

[Simon]

Well yes, it is, but you know what I was meaning, that I didn't want to get involved in a long argument.

BTW did you know that someone down your way hasn't claimed a million quid lottery prize. Well, in the "Cardiff area" anyway? So I was told earlier. Not sure why. (Why I was told, that is. Not why they haven't claimed it.)

Could it be you? Lol.

[doversoul1]

Anna
If anybody believes in fairies, I do but they have to be the 'real thing’ like these ones and not those Flower Fairies.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/personnel-Fairyland-account-Britain-children/dp/B000WFNCTO

Simon
Thank you. It is very civil of you.

[Simon]

Thank you. It is very civil of you.

No problems. It would be a rum world if we all thought the same!

[scottycelt]

OMG, I suddenly love scotty, what a pillar of common sense!

What took you so long, Anna .... ?

[Mary Chambers]

Doversoul: I have a question that has been on my mind since I read your views on women who stay at home with the children - are you male or female? I don't know!

[doversoul1]

Mary
I am a ‘she’ and have one grown up daughter. The reason I used ‘they’ in my posts is that I am involved in research (not my own research) in the field of life-course studies that deal with women’s work related problems. I also have a few friends who feel cheated because they made a choice that they thought the best (to stay at home and look after their children) and now find themselves to be unemployable. They are educated, able women with aspirations.

[Flosshilde]

cheated because they made a choice that they thought the best (to stay at home and look after their children) and now find themselves to be unemployable. They are educated, able women with aspirations.

Quite. Any woman with aspirations to a career (in any field) has to think of the consequences if they choose to stay at home & look after children. Even more so at the moment, when unemployment is rising rapidly, even (or especially) among professionals. Until governments enact legislation & employers take it seriously women who have had ten or fifteen years out of their job will be at a disadvantage. The last government did at least try to pass 'family-friendly' employment legislation to make it easier for people to work part-time & for fathers to take paternity leave, but the Tories & CBI were vehemntly opposed.

I'm afraid I find Simon's views rather too 'Kinder, Küche, & Kirche'.

[french frank]

It's interesting that in a world where women are coming to resemble men more in particular ways (girl gangs, female sex offenders, young smokers and drinkers), people should still feel that children's upbringing is always best served by it being performed by the mother. Women's natural mothering instincts are very convenient for men; maybe not so beneficial for women, or even - necessarily - for their own children. Perhaps?

[Flosshilde]

I think that there has been an interesting phenomenon relevant to this discussion in recent years. Among working class people with a reasonable ducation (sorry - can't think of a better way of categorising them) women have been more likely to have a job than men - because of being better educated, the greater availability of clerical/admin/secretarial jobs (which tend to be filled by women) than the industrial/manufacturing jobs traditionally taken by men. The consequence of this is that it's women who have been the breadwinner, & men who have been looking after the children. (just look at the number of men pushing prams during the day). But childcare is still treated as a low priority by men & their employers. Perhaps that will change as more middle-class/professional men lose their jobs?

[Simon]

Mary
I also have a few friends who feel cheated because they made a choice that they thought the best (to stay at home and look after their children) and now find themselves to be unemployable. They are educated, able women with aspirations.

Ah, but that doesn't mean that the choice wasn't best or wasn't right. It means that society needs to look at how it responds to educated, able women who have looked after their children and who wish to accomplish something outside the home.