Is Christianity Being Marginalised?

[MrGongGong]

Illogical and inconsistent!

Atheists are being logically sound to claim that praying doesn't do any good ...

However, they are being totally illogical when they then point to dodgy surveys that it might actually do harm ...

If there's 'nothing up there', do atheists therefore believe in fairies ... ?

What on earth is illogical and inconsistent ?

oh I forgot

"faith" is outside all the usual laws of the universe

what is shown by this study to do harm is to have people praying for you and you being aware of it !

[scottycelt]

What on earth is illogical and inconsistent ?

oh I forgot

"faith" is outside all the usual laws of the universe

what is shown by this study to do harm is to have people praying for you and you being aware of it !

So you do believe in fairies, Mr GG ... ?

Fairy enough, as they say ... anyway, you can look up the definition of 'logic' and 'consistent' in any English dictionary you may care to select ... I'm a great Google fan for an instant answer!

[MrGongGong]

No I don't
and I don't believe in the idea that somehow god will make me better
what made me better when I was ill was a surgeon , drugs and skilled medical staff
not some guy with a beard on a cloud or even his dodgy representatives in Rome , Canterbury or anywhere else for that matter

[scottycelt]

No I don't
and I don't believe in the idea that somehow god will make me better
what made me better when I was ill was a surgeon , drugs and skilled medical staff
not some guy with a beard on a cloud or even his dodgy representatives in Rome , Canterbury or anywhere else for that matter

Yup, I can certainly see your point there ...

[MrGongGong]

Thanks
no offence meant

[scottycelt]

Thanks
no offence meant

[Simon]

It's an interesting study, scotty, and the MBMI is as far as I know a valid organisation. So were the procedures. The problem was, as others have since identified, that despite complete methodological integrity, there are too many other factors that are, or could be, involved to make possible the desired isolation of the functions studied. I believe that they are going to repeat a similar study, which, one might be tempted to predict, will show a similar inconclusive pattern.

[scottycelt]

It's an interesting study, scotty, and the MBMI is as far as I know a valid organisation. So were the procedures. The problem was, as others have since identified, that despite complete methodological integrity, there are too many other factors that are, or could be, involved to make possible the desired isolation of the functions studied. I believe that they are going to repeat a similar study, which, one might be tempted to predict, will show a similar inconclusive pattern.

I do not doubt the sincerity and 'scientific' thoroughness of those responsible for such a survey, Simon. However. the obvious great unknown here is that those who did fare well after 'third-party prayer' may not have fared quite as well without those prayers? No one doubts (at least not myself) that prayer may not result in the intentions of those praying being realised. We would have one heck of a lot of miracles on our hands if it always did!

However, if I'm stuck in hospital and about to undergo a serious op, and take some comfort in the knowledge that others are praying for me, that at least, I think, would be a positive thing for my mental health which can also affect the physical?

Nevertheless, my only real point was not to rubbish the survey (people can draw their own conclusions), but merely to indicate that I would expect any atheist to indeed rubbish the survey as a total waste of time as "there's nothing up there, anyway". In other words praying would be neither good nor bad for the patient, just a completely pointless exercise.

[teamsaint]

Consciousness affects the physical world. Quantum physics clearly proves this.
even from a sceptical point of view, once you accept this, it makes the issue of "prayer" a rather more interesting one.

[teamsaint]

http://rickzepeda.hubpages.com/hub/Quantum-Physics-Wave-Particle-Duality-Consciousness

Also, This is a great read.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1905047932/?tag=googhydr-21&hvadid=4215308953&ref=pd_sl_3n1w4namih_e

In my view, this all starts to make some sense of some really difficult areas.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

er ... just because it [religious belief and practice] is good for you does not entail its truth ...... eg meditation has benefits to the organism, this does not prove reincarnation eh?

like this i fail to see why we should privilege superstition or any of the claims made to power for such social groups as [name the denominations]

[MrGongGong]

I
However, if I'm stuck in hospital and about to undergo a serious op, and take some comfort in the knowledge that others are praying for me, that at least, I think, would be a positive thing for my mental health which can also affect the physical?

But this study shows the opposite effect ?? (albeit by a small percentage !)

[scottycelt]

er ... just because it [religious belief and practice] is good for you does not entail its truth ...... eg meditation has benefits to the organism, this does not prove reincarnation eh?

like this i fail to see why we should privilege superstition or any of the claims made to power for such social groups as [name the denominations]

What's that got to do with it ...?

It's not a question whether you or I believe in the power of prayer or not, it's whether others believe it exists and wish to avail themselves of the practice. If they feel it might be of benefit in such cases what others believe is somewhat irrelevant.

Any doctor will tell you that unexplained medical 'miracles' can and do happen, and, in any case, we are not talking 'miracles' here just prayers for a successful op and recuperation.

If we're talking about superstition I'd much rather somebody said to me before an op 'I'll say a wee prayer for you ..' .. than .. 'fingers crossed, mate ..' ...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'd much rather somebody said to me before an op 'I'll say a wee prayer for you ..' .. than .. 'fingers crossed, mate ..' ...

If it were the surgeon, I wouldn't want them to say either!

[MrGongGong]

If it were the surgeon, I wouldn't want them to say either!

Having recently been in this position I would much rather trust my life to someone who has dedicated their life and considerable intelligence to learning about the human body and what to do when it goes wrong than some nebulous "god" who might decide to help but there again might not.
It strikes me that its a bit like the entirely bogus practice of homeopathy, fine for people who are reasonably healthy and have nothing really wrong with themselves and have money to waste. However, when we start to think (as some homeopathic charlatans do ) that it can be applied to real illness then the consequences are that people die having put their "faith" in sugar pills or some idea of "god" that will intervene.