Music you've known about but never heard until recently

[cloughie]

I disagree entirely! The second piece of music that I ever heard was his Third Symphony and I was absolutely knocked out by it! (I was nealy 12 years of age at the time).

Well there you go, wouldn't do if we were all the same.... By the way how did you manage to avoid hearing any music for the first 11+ years of your life?

[ahinton]

would you say, therefore, that "Firebird" or "Le Sacre" were immature Stravinsky? Surely not, yet they are very different from the quasi serial works of his latter years. Why say then that Szymanowski or Schoenberg in their later works showed them more "audibly themselves"? I agree that Szymanowski or Schoenberg (or Webern for that matter) changed styles, but this does not mean their early works weren't representative of themselves, at that particular point of their career.

No indeed it doesn't but, for all Jayne's difficulties with Schönberg's Pelleas (which I do not at all share and in response to which I can only recommend persistence that will ultimately pay rich dividends!), I interpret what she writes on this as meaning that some composers achieve a level of maturity and recognisable individuality at an earlier age and/or at an earlier stage in their careers than do others, three cases of which that occur to me off the cuff being Chopin, Brahms and Medtner, each of whom seemed to arrive on the scene almost "fully formed", as it were, although their styles continued to mature even though they admittedly underwent rather less drastic changes than those of Schönberg or Stravinsky; that said, let's not forget Schönberg's observations about not having changed his style at all but continuing to write as once he did except that people hadn't noticed! (and Stravinsky's "metamorphoses" of style, while retaining the virtue of always sounding like Stravinsky, have always struck me as cynical and magpie-like advantage-taking rather than the result of natural and inevitable maturing per se).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Stravinsky's "metamorphoses" of style, while retaining the virtue of always sounding like Stravinsky, have always struck me as cynical and magpie-like advantage-taking rather than the result of natural and inevitable maturing per se.

Ouch!

They've always struck me as admirable artistic reactions to what was going on around him - a conscious desire to keep his Music fresh and avoid the pitfalls of resting on his laurels. Whatever his mode of writing, he continued to write works that are amongst the miracles of human imagination. The structures of his works rarely conform to Teutonic ideas of "organic" development, so why should we expect his stylistic course to show such "smooth" lines of development? This is "natural and inevitable maturing" in his own terms: to impose more usual standards on him is like Schenker "proving" the invalidity of his Music by demonstrating that his Piano Concerto didn't conform to Schenkerian ideals.

[Suffolkcoastal]

I too was knocked out by Roussel's 3rd Symphony when I first heard it, though I was about 21 I think. I've since found Roussel to one of the most interesting and satisfying French composers. I am also most interested in the influence he had on two of my favourite American composers, Walter Piston & David Diamond.

I hope your exploration of Honegger's music is enjoyable am51, he's another composer I've grown to admire over the last 20 years, but sadly one that has become largely sidelined by the current R3 regime.

[cloughie]

No indeed it doesn't but, for all Jayne's difficulties with Schönberg's Pelleas (which I do not at all share and in response to which I can only recommend persistence that will ultimately pay rich dividends!), I interpret what she writes on this as meaning that some composers achieve a level of maturity and recognisable individuality at an earlier ae and/or at an earlier stage in their careers than do others, three cases of which that occur to me off the cuff being Chopin, Brahms and Medtner, each of whom seemed to arrive on the scene almost "fully formed", as it were, although their styles continued to mature even though they admittedly underwent rather less drastic changes than those of Schönberg or Stravinsky; that said, let's not forget Schönberg's observations about not having changed his style at all but continuing to write as once he did except that people hadn't noticed! (and Stravinsky's "metamorphoses" of style, while retaining the virtue of always sounding like Stravinsky, have always struck me as cynical and magpie-like advantage-taking rather than the result of natural and inevitable maturing per se).

Where could Stravinsky go after the mindblowing trio of works Firebird, Petrouchka and Rite, sure a classic case of a composer peaking early in his career. Sure he wrote some interesting stuff but he must have spent a long time knowing he'd never beat Rite!

[ahinton]

Well there you go, wouldn't do if we were all the same.... By the way how did you manage to avoid hearing any music for the first 11+ years of your life?

Living in a music-free zone and being quite ill for a fair amount of that time; nuff said.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Stravinsky ... must have spent a long time knowing he'd never beat Rite!

Not really: he'd written Les Noces by 1917.

[Ferretfancy]

Not really: he'd written Les Noces by 1917.

Absolutely, there were many masterpieces later, Apollo for example, and even at the very end of his career, in his serial phase, he was always uniquely Stravinsky.

[Flosshilde]

Absolutely, there were many masterpieces later, Apollo for example, and even at the very end of his career, in his serial phase, he was always uniquely Stravinsky.

And Oedipus Rex 1925-27, & the Symphony of Psalms 1930 - both great works.

[amateur51]

I too was knocked out by Roussel's 3rd Symphony when I first heard it, though I was about 21 I think. I've since found Roussel to one of the most interesting and satisfying French composers. I am also most interested in the influence he had on two of my favourite American composers, Walter Piston & David Diamond.

I hope your exploration of Honegger's music is enjoyable am51, he's another composer I've grown to admire over the last 20 years, but sadly one that has become largely sidelined by the current R3 regime.

Largely sidelined in concert halls too Suffolkcoastal

Still, I count myself as being very fortunate to have the experience and knowledge of the fascinating members of this board to tap into for highways & by-ways and then being able to toddle over to Spotify/youtube for tasters before committing myself to a purchase

'Tis a Golden Age, I tells ya!

[Roehre]

And Oedipus Rex 1925-27, & the Symphony of Psalms 1930 - both great works.

Though there is a couple of works from the early 'forties (Scènes de Ballet, e.g.) which might be considered to be less inspired, the one work of which I think Stravinsky was ruled by his technique and not vice versa, is his Movements for piano and orchestra (1959).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Though there is a couple of works from the early 'forties (Scènes de Ballet, e.g.) which might be considered to be less inspired

Agreed: his "feet-finding" activities as a US citizen produced some less-distinguished scores, when judged by the stratospheric standards he'd set himself. But I think everything by this composer from Petrushka onwards is covetable. Including the Movements*, which is one of my favourites: the way he "riffs" with the possibilities he found in Serialism is a source of endless delight.

(* = First performed 52 years ago today, IIRC?**)


EDIT: ** = Don't know where I got that idea from: 10th January, 1960.)

[Roehre]

Including the Movements*, which is one of my favourites: the way he "riffs" with the possibilities he found in Serialism is a source of endless delight.

(* = First performed 52 years ago today, IIRC?)

Nearly FHG , according to E.W.White it was premiered January 10th 1960.

Re Movements' being ruled by the technique: the treatment of the series in the 4th part of Agon, and -though obviously austere- Threni, or in A Serman, a Narrative and a Prayer, let alone The Flood shows a much more "free-floating" (I don't know another word how to describe this), perhaps even more inspired Stravinsky at work.
I love all these works, but IMO Movements is too "seriously serial" .

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Agon and Threni: wonderful works both (the former possibly my favourite work of all IS's output. Apart from whichever one I'm listening to!) and showing a composer who had no qualms about any alleged "superiority" of his earlier masterpieces.

[Nick Armstrong]

Massenet's 'Werther'...

I've been listening to the France Musique podcast of their 2 hour comparison programme of recordings of the piece.

It's so way outside my usual tastes - apart from the Frenchness, the orchestration... In the extracts chosen for comparison, I was struck by the beauty of the orchestral writing, the lack of .. triteness (I had assumed Massenet would be banal and pretty). Come to think of it, 'Pelléas' is one of the few operas I love, and the orchestral and vocal writing seems a not-too-distant precursor.

Not what I was expecting at all.