Should we boycott Apple products?

[kernelbogey]

The Observer today reports a swell of talk in the US of a boycott of Apple products following an article in The New York Times detailing working conditions in the factories in China which produce the Apple iPhone, iPad et al.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/jan/29/apple-faces-boycott-worker-abuses

There is a link to an article in the Observer in April which states that the workers’ basic pay is the equivalent of 65p per hour.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/apr/30/apple-chinese-workers-treated-inhumanely

I’m writing this on a MacBook, and wondering what my ethical response should be. Among my thoughts are that our prosperity in the West is based not only on reckless consumer and state borrowing which has led to the current fiscal crisis: we have also fed on cheap consumer goods from IKEA and other retailers whose products are produced in low-cost labour countries like China.

Here is a link to one of the NY Times articles.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-ipad-and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html?_r=1&ref=technology

Comments sent to NYT from China on the story:

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/25/chinese-readers-on-the-ieconomy/?scp=1&sq=boycott%20of%20apple&st=cse

[MrGongGong]

I'm also writing this on a MacBook but am under no misconceptions that some have of Apple ,,,,,,, It's not the retail branch of Amnesty International which some macheads seem to think....... I guess the ethical thing is to use Linux or even Microsoft as Bill Gates seems to be almost alone as a capitalist prepared to give away all his money to do good........................ I guess it's more ethical that selling weapons to the Saudis

[BBMmk2]

Interesting debate. Ethics in consumers shopping . I think that, if we boycott 'i' products, this would have an effect o0n the sales of iphones etc, yes. But and there is always one, what about the jobs of those that woul;d be affected, if the boycott should affecxt the jobs of those people involed in the manufacutring of these products? theyare the ones that be loosing out to? No money comin g in to help them be independant etc?

[kernelbogey]

Switching to other products doesn't 'solve' the ethical problem. One of the NYT articles states that Apple is not the only electronics company doing business within a troubling supply system. Bleak working conditions have been documented at factories manufacturing products for Dell, Hewlett-Packard, I.B.M., Lenovo, Motorola, Nokia, Sony, Toshiba and others.

Also, reading the responses of the Chinese to the article is illuminating - the danger of workers losing their jobs if they protest and returning to even worse conditions in rural poverty.

The key argument is whether putting consumer pressure on Apple would induce the company to change its sourcing policy, and as industry leader cause a ripple effect in others' policy.

[Dave2002]

A quick reply - on my iPad. The reports are disturbing, but how could I boycott Apple at this stage, and what effect would that have? I'm not intending to buy any more Apple products for some while, though when I do have a technology need I'd almost certainly go back to Apple. I'm sure the working conditions in the Chinese factories are not great, but I think people do work there because they think it's the best opportunity for them Similar situations prevailed in the UK 1-200 years ago.

The quoted 65p per hour payment may not be so terrible if one considers what it may buy for the workers in the Chinese context. This is not to condone it, though. My suspicion is that if there is a serious issue here it is more about the way people are treated than about pay. Public humiliation is probably not a good way to treat people - though I wonder about the bankers, and Sir Fred. I don't believe one should treat even people one doesn't like, or who have done wrong, in humiliating ways.

In the meantime I'm continuing with my Twitter boycott, which is also very effective! [I opened a few Twitter accounts some while back as I couldn't figure out why anyone would want to "do" Twitter. I still pretty much hold the same view - totally useless for most, and basically used by twits ]

Consequently I've been "boycotting" it for years now. Did anyone notice?

[Lateralthinking1]

In some senses this is easy for me. I have never been remotely interested in any Apple products. Hype that leads to a sheep like shopping mentality puts me off. And I looked at their charges for each individual music track. 49p or 99p? It is ok for teenagers who want one Lady Gaga track per month but if you want music and a lot of it I have found that there are far better deals.

On the main issue, I regret to say that the increasingly immoral behaviour of western Governments clouds the morality of their citizens, whether anyone wants that or not. Once it would all have been morally clear cut. Unacceptable international practices prompting boycotts and hopefully change for the better. Now we are all in a no-win, amoral, situation, to coin a horrid phrase.

For we really need to be aware as our working age is increased, paid jobs are turned into unpaid voluntary work and there are thoughts about abandoning the minimum wage, that we don't simply alleviate other's problems and transfer their conditions to here. Enough efforts are being made as it is to take us in that direction while at the same time we apologise for "historical" slavery.

[kernelbogey]

[...] For we really need to be aware as our working age is increased, paid jobs are turned into unpaid voluntary work and there are thoughts about abandoning the minimum wage, that we don't simply alleviate other's problems and transfer their conditions to here. Enough efforts are being made as it is to take us in that direction while at the same time we apologise for "historical" slavery.

I believe that the above is partly a consequence of rising prosperity in developing countries. The trend will be to even out prosperity across the globe. Surely that's a morally justifiable process? It's my understanding that there is enough food in the world that no one should starve.

I - like, I think, all posting on these boards - am fortunate to be among the top five percentile (or less) of the wealthiest people in the world, simply by virtue of living in Europe.

[Don Petter]

In some senses this is easy for me. I have never been remotely interested in any Apple products. Hype that leads to a sheep like shopping mentality puts me off.

Exactly my experience and feeling (though I do have a soft spot for Charlotte).

So, for once, I'm doing the right PC thing?

[Lateralthinking1]

I believe that the above is partly a consequence of rising prosperity in developing countries. The trend will be to even out prosperity across the globe. Surely that's a morally justifiable process? It's my understanding that there is enough food in the world that no one should starve. I - like, I think, all posting on these boards - am fortunate to be among the top five percentile (or less) of the wealthiest people in the world, simply by virtue of living in Europe.

I half understand this argument, ie the food. That has been the case for as long as I can recall. But for me this is a question about the quality of life, the ability to get to old age, conditions for security etc. There is a very strong argument that boycotts could lead to them losing their jobs and returning to rural poverty while workers here would be expected to put up with only marginally better conditions, ie Lose-Lose. This is the problem with having companies run by individuals who are not rich in moral fibre.

Additionally, I think I hear the phrase "trickle down economics" in what you are saying. We know from experience in the microcosm of a western nation how dubious is this "science". It is one in which water generally flows upwards. I am staggered by the poll today that shows many as supporting a ceiling on a CEO's annual income of 1 million pounds. I would opt for something like £300,000 after tax. If Archbishops were paid that much, or god forbid our politicians, they would be as blase and as corrupt as hell.

[MrGongGong]

In some senses this is easy for me. I have never been remotely interested in any Apple products. .

Sadly (in many ways !) my Macbook is far better built, more stable and reliable than my previous machines
can't stand Apple software though
so I don't use it

[VodkaDilc]

I would never boycott Apple products. I have only ever used MacBooks and I'm far too old to learn how to use the other sort. Everyone says that Apple products are superior and I have no reason to think otherwise. You'd never get me onto the ipads, iphones and all the rest though - and I think that's where the big profits come from.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I'm also writing this on a MacBook but am under no misconceptions that some have of Apple ,,,,,,, It's not the retail branch of Amnesty International which some macheads seem to think....... I guess the ethical thing is to use Linux or even Microsoft as Bill Gates seems to be almost alone as a capitalist prepared to give away all his money to do good........................ I guess it's more ethical that selling weapons to the Saudis

Never forget the British RISCOS, pioneered by Acorn Computers, taken over by Castle and now used on the A9 Computer and also on Virtual Acorn that runs on PCs and Apple computers. I invariably use my old Acorn in preference to my PC laptop (provided my my workplace). The older computer runs at only a tenth of the speed of the so-called faster modern one, yet performs most functions more rapidly. Why is this? The computers may be faster, but Windows is SLOW.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Apple are not the only user of Chinese and other Asian suppliers who offer their workers little more than debt slavery or worse ... but compared to eg Primark, Appple stick a huge margin on the product price which many people do not seem to object to paying ... as used to be said in the old days when there was a uk merchant fleet it is amazing what a slap of white paint can do ......

[makropulos]

I would never boycott Apple products. I have only ever used MacBooks

Yes - that's also my position exactly. If anyone else could come up with a computer that was as good for my needs as the succession of Apples I've had since 1990 (and the only computers I've ever used, or ever wanted to use), then I might think about it. But frankly I don't see that happening. I know there's something hideously unethical about this (but then as I type I'm sipping a cup of Nescafé...) - but I might as well be honest about it.

[Mr Pee]

65p an hour is probably a quite reasonable wage in that part of China. What's the alternative? Boycott the product and throw them all out of work?? They would then be earning...erm....0p an hour.