Gove shows the door to creationism as science

[Flosshilde]

Anything?

A symbol and reminder of the terrible things that can be done in the name of fear, politics or religious intolerance is surely not the worst thing to have on the walls.

Perhaps, but having a reminder of the terrible things that can be done doesn't seem to stop the organisation responsible for exposing people to that reminder from doing terrible things (torture can be emotional and mental as well as physical)

[MrGongGong]

Flossie's just contradicted you, Mr GG ... haven't atheists yet learned to sing from the same hymn sheet?

how do you know i'm an Atheist ?
you made that up as well

[scottycelt]

how do you know i'm an Atheist ?
you made that up as well

Anything else that I've failed to expertly decode from the jumble of words in #143... ?

[Flosshilde]

I don't think that MrGongGong has said anything - in that post, nor in any other - that might lead you to think that he (or perhaps she?) is an atheist. His theos, though, might not be your theos.

[teamsaint]

Perhaps, but having a reminder of the terrible things that can be done doesn't seem to stop the organisation responsible for exposing people to that reminder from doing terrible things (torture can be emotional and mental as well as physical)

I wasn't advocating it's use, as I made clear.

Plenty had been done that is very bad in the name of almost many belief systems, including aetheism.

Th catholic church has a great deal to answer for ..........but it also provides a very useful whipping boy (!!) for those who might wish to deflect attention .
It is true to say , for instance, that the vast bulk ofchild abuse, including the worst sorts, take place in the home. Our secular authorities routinely fail to deal with this........but far more is heard in the media about abuse in the catholic church than is ever heard about abuse in the home

[amateur51]

In the obvious assumption that the classroom walls would not be left bare, what would you replace the crucifixes with, Floss ...?

'No Cuts' ... 'Tories Out!' ... 'Save My Mum's Pension' posters ?

By comparison, I think the crucifixes might suddenly appear a relatively less subjective and more inspiring symbol for our kids ...

What about some posters showing aspects of world poverty, and the attempts by religiously-inspied agencies such as Christian Aid and CAFOD, Alongside Oxfam & WaterAid and ActionAid, to do something about it

[amateur51]

Moral Purity & Persecution in History Babbington Moore

why i find both Atheism and Pragmatism morally preferable in the most succinct nutshell ...

Wasn't Barrington Moore the chap who forged those Joyce Hatto recordings?

Another Creation Myth

[scottycelt]

What about some posters showing aspects of world poverty, and the attempts by religiously-inspied agencies such as Christian Aid and CAFOD, Alongside Oxfam & WaterAid and ActionAid, to do something about it

Actually, such posters were already quite commonplace in my old school, Ams ... I confess I've no idea what goes on classroom walls today, and possibly that's just as well ...

[amateur51]

Actually, such posters were already quite commonplace in my old school, Ams ... I confess I've no idea what goes on classroom walls today, and possibly that's just as well ...

Well there you go, scotty - we are in agreement!

So what went wrong in your case?

[MrGongGong]

Actually I confess I've no idea

well its one way of putting it

(sins of omission ??)

[scottycelt]

I don't think that MrGongGong has said anything - in that post, nor in any other - that might lead you to think that he (or perhaps she?) is an atheist. His theos, though, might not be your theos.

Ahhh ... I get it now ... he/she/it worships the Greek God Xenakis ... ?

[PhilipT]

Not sure about Flossie, but I'd say that if a school accepts public money then it should not teach Creationism as science. That's all

Now there I completely agree with you (and, I'm sure, Flossie). As for indoctrination, I think we will soon find that it may depend on what is being indoctrinated. Do you really mean to suggest that it is morally wrong to indoctrinate future bankers in concepts of responsibility to society etc. etc.? Or do you mean that it's OK to indoctrinate them in ideas you approve of, but not ideas you don't?

[Flosshilde]

Definition of INDOCTRINATE
transitive verb
1: to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments : teach
2: to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle
— in·doc·tri·na·tion \(ˌ)in-ˌdäk-trə-ˈnā-shən\ noun
— in·doc·tri·na·tor \in-ˈdäk-trə-ˌnā-tər\ noun

Examples of INDOCTRINATE
The goal should be to teach politics, rather than to indoctrinate students in a narrow set of political beliefs.
<indoctrinated children in proper safety procedures>
Origin of INDOCTRINATE
probably from Middle English endoctrinen, from Anglo-French endoctriner, from en- + doctrine doctrine
First Known Use: 1626

From the Meriam-Webster on-line dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/indoctrinate)

I would suggest that 'indoctrinate' is used mainly now in the second meaning, & also to suggest an element of lack of choice or an unquestioning acceptance of whatever it is being indoctrinated.

Do you really mean to suggest that it is morally wrong to indoctrinate future bankers in concepts of responsibility to society etc. etc.? Or do you mean that it's OK to indoctrinate them in ideas you approve of, but not ideas you don't? Or do you mean that it's OK to indoctrinate them in ideas you approve of, but not ideas you don't?

I would consider it morally dubious to indoctrinate someone, even in something I approved of; in the case of your bankers, I would want to teach them about responsibility, in the hope that they might exercise it during their work.

[MrGongGong]

Ahhh ... I get it now ... he/she/it worships the Greek God Xenakis ... ?

and here is the sacred incantation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2O8bMlEijg

listen and understand Padwan

[PhilipT]

I would consider it morally dubious to indoctrinate someone, even in something I approved of; in the case of your bankers, I would want to teach them about responsibility, in the hope that they might exercise it during their work.

I don't think it would work. It's no better than teaching people about the law and its penalties - it's also important to inculcate some moral values and a sense of right and wrong. That is not (just) the responsibility of parents, it is the responsibility of society, often delegated to society's agent, the state. Mere teaching is not enough - you can't rely on individuals merely calculating their personal risks and benefits; there has to be a sense of doing something, or not doing something, because it's the right thing to do. I don't suggest that those moral values should necessarily draw their inspration from some religion, but provided the values are in harmony with those of the rest of society I don't see why they shouldn't.