WAM's final consonant

[french frank]

But I am sure I am not alone in dropping the final T in rapid continuous speech - perhaps particularly before plosives - "IthinkthatMozar'believedindivineprovidence", "Bu'surelyMozar'preferredtheclarinettotheflute ". Insisting on a final T in that context makes one sound like a governess...

Rapid speech is one thing. Would you pronounce the t in 'flute' in "Bu'surelyMozar'preferredtheclarinettotheflute "? It's also a question of how rapidly the final word is articulated. It's when it's stressed and the t is still dropped that's, I think, the glottal stop that has become particularly noticeable.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Out of interest: how do Forumistas pronounce "Purcell"?

[Pabmusic]

Out of interest: how do Forumistas pronounce "Purcell"?

Persil - or rather Pər-sell.

[vinteuil]

Persil - or rather Pər-səl.

... yes, it has to be so - we had this debate on the old Boards - and I seem to remember disinterring a poem of the time which, for scansion, requires that it be 'Purcell

From a linguistics website:

Dryden, a good friend of the composer, wrote an Ode on the death of Mr Henry Purcell, in which the name appears twice. On both occasions, the metre of the line demands that the name be stressed on the first syllable: “So ceas’d the rival Crew when Purcell came” and “The Gods are pleas’d alone with Purcell’s Lays”. Similarly, and two centuries later, Gerard Manley Hopkins wrote a sonnet to Purcell, the first quatrain of which is:

Have, fair fallen, O fair, fair have fallen, so dear
To me, so arch-especial a spirit as heaves in Henry Purcell,
An age is now since passed, since parted; with the reversal
Of the outward sentence low lays him, listed to a heresy, here.

Better even than these examples is the evidence of contemporary spellings of the name: John Evelyn’s Diary has the spelling ‘Pursal’ or ‘Purcel’ (30 May 1698 – different editors have the different spellings); Henry ‘Persill’ appears as a member of the cast of “The Siege of Rhodes” (1656); Henry ‘Pursall’ in the Will of John Hingston (12 December 1683). The variation in the spellings of the second syllable indicate that this cannot have been the stressed syllable.

[Pabmusic]

... yes, it has to be so - we had this debate on the old Boards - and I seem to remember disinterring a poem of the time which, for scansion, requires that it be 'Purcell...Better even than these examples is the evidence of contemporary spellings of the name: John Evelyn’s Diary has the spelling ‘Pursal’ or ‘Purcel’ (30 May 1698 – different editors have the different spellings); Henry ‘Persill’ appears as a member of the cast of “The Siege of Rhodes” (1656); Henry ‘Pursall’ in the Will of John Hingston (12 December 1683). The variation in the spellings of the second syllable indicate that this cannot have been the stressed syllable.

This is really helpful. Thank you. It's variant spellings that show us how things were once pronounced.

[gurnemanz]

Yes, I think I would too - when the word is at the end of a phrase.

But I am sure I am not alone in dropping the final T in rapid continuous speech - perhaps particularly before plosives - "IthinkthatMozar'believedindivineprovidence", "Bu'surelyMozar'preferredtheclarinettotheflute ". Insisting on a final T in that context makes one sound like a governess...

Dropping a "t" is a standard feature of colloquial or informal pronunciation (unlike German) and not, in my view, slack or substandard, but simply the way we do things. I would bet that most people most of the time do not fully enunciate the t in cartwheel, Eastbourne, Christmas, postman, outbreak etc etc. In a more formal context, i.e. from the mouth of a newsreader on the BBC, I think there is a good case for full enunciation of those ts. One of the newsreaders with the best diction on BBC Five Live is Kate Williams. I have noticed that in handing over to her, the presenter will usually say her name with the t subsumed in the following W, whereas she herself gives the t full value, which is actually more pleasing to the ear.

[greenilex]

Thanks everyone.

I'll never be persuaded into dropping that "t" - especially at four o'clock.

[french frank]

Dropping a "t" is a standard feature of colloquial or informal pronunciation (unlike German) and not, in my view, slack or substandard, but simply the way we do things. I would bet that most people most of the time do not fully enunciate the t in cartwheel, Eastbourne, Christmas, postman, outbreak etc etc. In a more formal context, i.e. from the mouth of a newsreader on the BBC, I think there is a good case for full enunciation of those ts.

I would remove the word 'standard' from that description. Or replace it with 'common' (feature). You certainly have similar informal speech in French (e.g. approx. Sheh pas/Shaveh pas = Je ne sais/savais pas). I would say that definitely is 'slack' even if that is not necessarily a particular criticism: it is also 'the way we do things'. The issue is, when is such informality appropriate and when is it not? If your boss asks you a question, is it all right to shrug and say, 'Dunno'. What does it imply? When is it not all right for a national broadcaster to adopt informalities of this kind (e.g. a newsreader) and when is it okay (trivial banter between two presenters)? Is gabbling and informal pronunciation acceptable when giving out information that matters to the listener?

I beg your pardons, all - I have thought too long about this issue and could go on at some length ...

[vinteuil]

I accept the different registers that shd be expected in - variously - 'slovenly', informal, and formal speech.

I wd still maintain that it wd be inappropriate ( voire "incorrect" ) to over-articulate, even in "formal" (let us say - Radio 3 presenter speech [if only!]) -

fr'instance - in "normal" English the T in "button" is seldom pronounced. But most speakers wd be most offended if you pointed this out - they think they pronounce the T - but they don't. (Curiously the T in "mutton", altho' often omitted, is pronounced more frequently than the T in "button"... )

There is a range from slack/slovenly through colloquial - informal - to formal. But we shdn't fall into the pedants' trap of thinking that Over Correct is actually appropriate...

[doversoul1]

I’d have thought that BBC announcers (don’t know about the new generation presenters…) are trained to pronounce those t’s without sounding over-correct in the way only professionals can do. Is it not what makes them so distinct (did once up on a time…)?

[french frank]

fr'instance - in "normal" English the T in "button" is seldom pronounced. But most speakers wd be most offended if you pointed this out - they think they pronounce the T - but they don't. (Curiously the T in "mutton", altho' often omitted, is pronounced more frequently than the T in "button"... )

If we start not pronouncing all our consonants - what next? We'll be speaking French!

[PatrickOD]

If we start not pronouncing all our consonants - what next? We'll be speaking French!

Pas du tout, ff. No a tall.

[VodkaDilc]

I'm intrigued by the way Scotland is pronounced these days, especially by weather forecasters: with some of them the initial two consonants are the only ones we hear, apart from a vague 'l' somewhere in the middle. ('Scolaa'). They even seem keen to get the first vowel out of the way ASAP.

And don't get me started on the way weather forecasters and others do not know that 'a' and 'the' are pronounced 'ay' and 'thee' before a vowel (and only then.) To do otherwise sounds completely unnatural to my generation. (So we get the forecasters talking about the (not thee) east and the alps - and Prime Ministers and Foreign Secretaries talking about thee Conservative Party. It all sounds wrong!)

[mangerton]

I'm intrigued by the way Scotland is pronounced these days, especially by weather forecasters: with some of them the initial two consonants are the only ones we hear, apart from a vague 'l' somewhere in the middle. ('Scolaa'). They even seem keen to get the first vowel out of the way ASAP.

You're intrigued, I'm appalled. You are absolutely right in your assessment. I'm sure that slovenly diction is a prerequisite for employment as a weather forecaster.