The US Election

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  • amateur51

    Originally posted by Lateralthinking1 View Post
    For amateur51, as promised and with thanks, and everyone else who has an interest:

    "Osama bin Laden is dead and General Motors is alive". Back on 6 September, I was noting that Joe Biden - of all people - had finally found a narrative for the Obama campaign. As for the rest of that get-together of the donkeys, it all seemed a trifle lacklustre. Barnstorming Bill was all very well but unlikely to appeal to the undecided. Well, the American public disagreed. While in August, the opinion polls were showing the two main candidates alternating for first position, Romney was second in all but one throughout September. Many polls were showing an Obama lead of 4-10%, one indicated that he had a 15% lead, and the one that he didn't win was a tie. Even so, supporters of the President were advised to exercise caution. The number of polls showing only a 1-3% lead wasn't insignificant. Then, in Denver, on 3 October, there was the first of the televised debates. Romney appeared to be in command while Obama was viewed as surprisingly hesitant. Actually, it was worse. The figures on who "won" the debate were abysmal for Obama. During the first week in October, Romney was ahead in the opinion polls with a lead of 1-4%. One debate had been sufficient to undo all of the positive impact of the Democratic convention and the elephants were pretty jubilant.



    In the Vice Presidential debate on 11 October, Joe Biden took on the Republicans' young hopeful Paul Ryan. Biden, who is renowned for unfortunate gaffes, was perhaps a surprising choice last time round as Obama's running mate. I doubt that it was a certainty that he would be running to be Vice President again but it was he who was chosen. His performance on the night, full of interruptions and finger wagging, was described by critics as "weirdly aggressive". The worry was that this would have alienated women and swing voters. However, the opinion polls suggested that this year's biggest winner, uncertainty, was now again in the front seat. Did Romney have a 4% lead or was Obama ahead by seven percentage points? By 16 October, no one had the faintest idea, including the two main candidates as they went into the second debate in New York. Watched by tens of millions of Americans, the two squared off, only a few feet apart, talking over one another, jabbing fingers at one another and accusing each other of lying. Obama, clearly rejuvenated, emerged apparently triumphant. As The Guardian reported the next day:

    'Until then it was thought the animosity between the two was confined to policy but it became apparent there is also deep personal antipathy. At one point Romney, almost contemptuous of the president, told him: "You will get your chance in a minute. I am speaking." Republicans may view this as Romney standing up to Obama and what they regard as a representative of the liberal media, but the risk is that independents view it as rudeness.'



    The third main debate took place in Florida on 22 October. The polls had been wilder than ever. It would be a win in November for Romney by 7% or a win for Obama by 5%. Any swing voter hoping for clarity was to be disappointed. Yes, the third stand-off was also a "win" for Obama but by the most slender of margins. Reagan might have won the 1980 election with ten words in a Presidential debate - “Are you better off than you were four years ago?”. Many undecided voters knew the answer. Here, there was no sign of such a winning formula. According to one commentator, it was "like watching a guilt-free reality show". Those who produce opinion polls continue with their trade. I have looked at everything they have published since that third debate and am able to tell you who will win the election. It will be Romney with a 5% lead or Obama will win by 12%. Unless, that is, the outcome is dependent on something called electoral college votes. Then, I would wager, it is likely to be between these extremes.
    Many thanks for a data-lite resumé, Lat - those %age lead figures get me dizzier than usual most times.

    I guess the next question is abiout the Sandy factor - did storm Sandy offer the Pres an opportunity he couldn't refuse? And how will they pick up their campaigns after such a hiatus? All still to play for, by the look of it

    Comment

    • Lateralthinking1

      Originally posted by amateur51 View Post
      Many thanks for a data-lite resumé, Lat - those %age lead figures get me dizzier than usual most times.

      I guess the next question is abiout the Sandy factor - did storm Sandy offer the Pres an opportunity he couldn't refuse? And how will they pick up their campaigns after such a hiatus? All still to play for, by the look of it
      An interesting question is whether opinion polls have really become more sophisticated over time. I have been rather shocked at the wide variations throughout the course of this year. A second question is whether many of them have some sort of inbuilt bias. What I note is that they tend to be far more accurate than in earlier times on the big night. Why?

      My point about electoral college votes is that much of the reporting of opinion polls simply overlooks them. A win for one of the candidates by extremely narrow margins in, say, Ohio and Florida could provide him with a huge number of electoral college votes based on a less than overwhelming number of votes.

      While that could provide an overall result in which one of the candidates wins by a far greater percentage of electoral college votes than actual votes, it could also do the opposite. The latter could happen if there were narrow margins for each candidate in key states and it all balanced out. That seems likely.



      Hurricane Sandy appears to have been helpful to Obama. Many are saying that it shows the importance of having a federal government for how could the private sector have dealt with such a crisis? And New York Mayor Bloomberg has now endorsed the President because of it, citing his policy on climate change - http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/11/01/...ndorses-obama/.

      The disaster has also helped the President to display his human character. Just as Reagan won the 1980 election with just ten words, the photograph shown is the one that may commentators are saying could just have won Obama this election.

      How do you feel the campaign is going? Is Obama going to win?
      Last edited by Guest; 02-11-12, 15:48.

      Comment

      • Serial_Apologist
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 37886

        I think its very hard for us to say, given our well-founded cynicism with bourgeois politics and politicians over here; it's just a shame that Obama is such a nice chap! - he's given all the opportunities he needs to really stick the knife in, yet always desists. Romney appears such a cardboard cutout - yet Americans so often go for the container these days, rather than what it contains, apparently...

        Comment

        • ahinton
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 16123

          Originally posted by vinteuil View Post
          “My grandfather came here from the coalmines of Wales where he started work at the age of six. He came with nothing in his pocket but hope and dreams,” she declared, sounding more Dolly Parton than Barbara Bush.
          Not only does that strike me as a funny place in which to keep hopes and dreams, I also imagine that Ms Parton would have found somewhere else upon her person in which to keep hers...

          Originally posted by vinteuil View Post
          Mrs Romney’s appeal to ordinary Americans in grim economic times may seem surprising given her own circumstances. “Look, I don’t even consider myself wealthy,” she claimed recently, a remarkable statement for someone with four homes, a string of dressage horses and, in her husband’s nonchalant estimate, “a couple of Cadillacs”.
          Surprising! Well-nigh impossible, I would think! And if the hopeful future President of the US of A estimates numbers of Cadillacs so nonchalantly as to reveal his inability to tell whether his wife has one, two or more of them, it says little for his chances or indeed for his deserving any!

          Originally posted by vinteuil View Post
          A critic alleged recently that she had “never worked a day in her life”, an accusation that was not entirely true (she once ran part-time cookery classes), but true enough to inflict damage.'
          I don't actually see that a future US President's wife would have had to work in order for either her to attain credibility as such or for him to attain credibility as President.

          Comment

          • ahinton
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 16123

            Originally posted by Lateralthinking1 View Post
            An interesting question is whether opinion polls have really become more sophisticated over time. I have been rather shocked at the wide variations throughout the course of this year. A second question is whether many of them have some sort of inbuilt bias. What I note is that they tend to be far more accurate than in earlier times on the big night. Why?

            My point about electoral college votes is that much of the reporting of opinion polls simply overlooks them. A win for one of the candidates by extremely narrow margins in, say, Ohio and Florida could provide him with a huge number of electoral college votes based on a less than overwhelming number of votes.

            While that could provide an overall result in which one of the candidates wins by a far greater percentage of electoral college votes than actual votes, it could also do the opposite. The latter could happen if there were narrow margins for each candidate in key states and it all balanced out. That seems likely.



            Hurricane Sandy appears to have been helpful to Obama. Many are saying that it shows the importance of having a federal government for how could the private sector have dealt with such a crisis? And New York Mayor Bloomberg has now endorsed the President because of it, citing his policy on climate change - http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/11/01/...ndorses-obama/.

            The disaster has also helped the President to display his human character. Just as Reagan won the 1980 election with just ten words, the photograph shown is the one that may commentators are saying could just have won Obama this election.

            How do you feel the campaign is going? Is Obama going to win?
            He is possibly not going to lose, but then I'm less than convinced that Sandy's given him much of a fillip in it, frankly; I'm more inclined to think that his chances of retaining ther Presidency might have rather more to do with the fact of his having a pretty hopeless opponent.

            Comment

            • ahinton
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 16123

              Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
              Romney appears such a cardboard cutout
              That's possibly the worst insult to cardboard that I've ever had the misfortune to hear...

              Comment

              • Byas'd Opinion

                My point about electoral college votes is that much of the reporting of opinion polls simply overlooks them. A win for one of the candidates by extremely narrow margins in, say, Ohio and Florida could provide him with a huge number of electoral college votes based on a less than overwhelming number of votes.
                I was talking to some people from the States - floating voters from Washington State - who reckoned that the election was so close that one candidate (probably Obama) could well get slightly more votes than his opponent but end up losing because he won slightly fewer electoral college seats.

                Mind you, that was a couple of months ago when the polls were neck-and-neck. There seems to have been a slight swing to Obama recently, although it still looks close.

                Comment

                • Demetrius
                  Full Member
                  • Sep 2011
                  • 276

                  Well, a likely scenario would be the following:

                  A website covering all polls regarding the Election sees it like this

                  17 States and 201 Votes securely for Obama
                  23 States and 191 Votes securely for Romney

                  meaning that Obama needs another 69 Votes from the rest to win

                  He has the Advantage in all Pennsylvania Polls, even that of more Republican leaning institutes; that would put him up to 221 Votes

                  Ohio looks similar, yet closer, with only one recent poll (the one with the highest margin of Error) indicating a tie; Ohio would bring another 18 Votes for 239

                  Michigan: same as Pennsylvania; Wisconsin same as Ohio; together 26 Votes - 265

                  I believe that Obama will win these states, as the polls indicate; Romney would have to win pretty much everything else to win the presidency

                  Virginia, Iowa, Colorado, Nevada, North Carolina are ties or leaning slightly towards Obama - either one would get him through - Nevada being the most likely one

                  Of all those swing-states, only Florida seems to be leaning towards Romney at the moment; His favour over his surprisingly good performance in the first debate seems to have run its course.

                  So it will most probably be Obama winning the Electoral Vote; as well as the Public one.

                  One way or the other, the election should provide a good show; And if it all comes down to Nevada, it would be quite a long one :D

                  Comment

                  • LeMartinPecheur
                    Full Member
                    • Apr 2007
                    • 4717

                    Intervention by Master of the Universe swings it for Obama??


                    I keep hitting the Escape key, but I'm still here!

                    Comment

                    • Lateralthinking1

                      Originally posted by Demetrius View Post
                      Well, a likely scenario would be the following:

                      A website covering all polls regarding the Election sees it like this

                      17 States and 201 Votes securely for Obama
                      23 States and 191 Votes securely for Romney

                      meaning that Obama needs another 69 Votes from the rest to win

                      He has the Advantage in all Pennsylvania Polls, even that of more Republican leaning institutes; that would put him up to 221 Votes

                      Ohio looks similar, yet closer, with only one recent poll (the one with the highest margin of Error) indicating a tie; Ohio would bring another 18 Votes for 239

                      Michigan: same as Pennsylvania; Wisconsin same as Ohio; together 26 Votes - 265

                      I believe that Obama will win these states, as the polls indicate; Romney would have to win pretty much everything else to win the presidency

                      Virginia, Iowa, Colorado, Nevada, North Carolina are ties or leaning slightly towards Obama - either one would get him through - Nevada being the most likely one

                      Of all those swing-states, only Florida seems to be leaning towards Romney at the moment; His favour over his surprisingly good performance in the first debate seems to have run its course.

                      So it will most probably be Obama winning the Electoral Vote; as well as the Public one.

                      One way or the other, the election should provide a good show; And if it all comes down to Nevada, it would be quite a long one :D
                      Thanks Demetrius. That is very helpful.

                      I agree with your assessment. Nevada might well be critical and, as you imply, that result will arrive late. I think Colorado could also be the one to get Obama re-elected although I wouldn't easily see North Carolina doing so. Two cautionary notes. One, there is always the possibility of a twist on the day of polling. Secondly, I can't help but think that if you undertook the same exercise with the objective of securing victory for Romney, you could find a convincing case.

                      Was it Truman who said that elections are won with the support of those who "vote the pocket book"? Certainly Clinton's strategists in 1992 had much the same in mind when they coined the phrase "it's the economy, stupid". If Obama does win, he can thank the merest glimmer of an upturn in the economy but the victory will still be staggering. It is probably true to say that no one in modern times has been re-elected with the economy being as it is currently.

                      Expect to see figures indicating significant differences in the patterns of men and women's votes and, crucially, a big Democratic vote from Latin Americans who in this election could really make their presence felt.

                      And spare a thought for Jill Stein, Gary Johnson, Virgil Goode and Rocky Anderson. As the Green, Libertarian, Constitution and Justice candidates, they took part in an independent presidential debate on 23 October in Chicago. While I doubt that we will hear very much about them, I am wondering what all of those Ron Paul supporters are likely to be doing when it comes to the big day!
                      Last edited by Guest; 03-11-12, 18:12.

                      Comment

                      • Demetrius
                        Full Member
                        • Sep 2011
                        • 276

                        Of course, polls can mislead expectations ... Truman being the best example. I think there is a Picture somewhere with him holding up a newspaper announcing the victory of his opponent in his reelection - the day after Truman won against all odds.

                        However, with several institutes polling the deceicive states regularly and with a lot of experience regarding Voting behaviour, I still think they are at least close to accurate. The website I have used up till now is www.270towin.com; The numbers for North Carolina are open for speculation in just about every direction, but I also expect it to end up going for Romney. If I were forced to bet by a masked Guy with a Chain Saw standing behind me, I would probably put Nevada, Virgina and Colorado together with Ohio, Pennsylvania, michigan and Wisconsin in the blue basket, North Carolina, Florida, Iowa and New Hampshire (which I forgot, shame on me :D) going to Romney ... 293 to 245 Votes in the Electoral College for Obama

                        Is there actually a way to bet on this like on a sports competition? :D

                        edit: Regarding a third party and or a breakdown of the party system; happend several times before - a Scenario like the Taft/Roosevelt infight might well come up again in the future - but this election won't be decided by the independent; both sides will "loose" a few votes to them, but i doubt it will be significant. In Future, if the world and the US continue to run downhill at top speed, both Parties might rupture, same as in other countries (Germany being a case; started out with 3 parties and seems inclined to add one per decade)
                        Last edited by Demetrius; 03-11-12, 17:29.

                        Comment

                        • Lateralthinking1

                          Originally posted by Demetrius View Post
                          Of course, polls can mislead expectations ... Truman being the best example. I think there is a Picture somewhere with him holding up a newspaper announcing the victory of his opponent in his reelection - the day after Truman won against all odds.

                          However, with several institutes polling the deceicive states regularly and with a lot of experience regarding Voting behaviour, I still think they are at least close to accurate. The website I have used up till now is www.270towin.com; The numbers for North Carolina are open for speculation in just about every direction, but I also expect it to end up going for Romney. If I were forced to bet by a masked Guy with a Chain Saw standing behind me, I would probably put Nevada, Virgina and Colorado together with Ohio, Pennsylvania, michigan and Wisconsin in the blue basket, North Carolina, Florida, Iowa and New Hampshire (which I forgot, shame on me :D) going to Romney ... 293 to 245 Votes in the Electoral College for Obama

                          Is there actually a way to bet on this like on a sports competition? :D

                          edit: Regarding a third party and or a breakdown of the party system; happend several times before - a Scenario like the Taft/Roosevelt infight might well come up again in the future - but this election won't be decided by the independent; both sides will "loose" a few votes to them, but i doubt it will be significant. In Future, if the world and the US continue to run downhill at top speed, both Parties might rupture, same as in other countries (Germany being a case; started out with 3 parties and seems inclined to add one per decade)
                          Yes. It was Dewey, I think, against Truman? The equivalent here was 1970 when the newspapers declared that it was a victory for Harold Wilson. Ted Heath took it.

                          Third candidates in the US have had their moments. I have just had a look at the figures. George Wallace 1968 - 13.5%; John Anderson 1980 - 6.6%; Ross Perot 1992 - 18.9% and 1996 - 8.4%, among others. As you say, though, it is unlikely to be the case this time around.

                          I am sure that you can bet on virtually anything but this isn't the sort of race on which I'd want to place money.

                          It would be useful to include a map showing the electoral college votes in 2008 and another showing predictions. I have not been able so far to find ones that are particularly clear so if you have access to some good maps they would be very welcome.

                          Comment

                          • Demetrius
                            Full Member
                            • Sep 2011
                            • 276

                            Create your own forecast for the 2024 presidential election


                            again :D

                            you can select the year right above Michigan, goes back to 1789

                            numbers have slightly changed due to the 2010 Census update

                            if you select 2012 battleground States below the gulf you have the close states unmarked, if you want a more detailed map, then:



                            detailed informations regarding the States are under "polls" and "states"

                            I like that they try to cover all polls instead of relying on only one Institute

                            Comment

                            • Lateralthinking1

                              Originally posted by Demetrius View Post
                              http://www.270towin.com/

                              again :D

                              you can select the year right above Michigan, goes back to 1789

                              numbers have slightly changed due to the 2010 Census update

                              if you select 2012 battleground States below the gulf you have the close states unmarked, if you want a more detailed map, then:



                              detailed informations regarding the States are under "polls" and "states"

                              I like that they try to cover all polls instead of relying on only one Institute
                              Now that's very good. I couldn't find anything as good as that map. J Strom Thurmond, third candidate, 1948 - 39 EC votes; Harry F Boyd, second Democratic candidate (??), 1960 - 15 EC votes. Well, I never knew that!

                              Back in the late 1970s/early 1980s, there was a lot of talk about the religious right becoming influential in the southern states. Your map shows why. I doubt that I spotted one Republican victory in Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia and South Carolina between 1900 and the 1960s. But those states have mainly been for the Republicans since and often solidly.



                              Elsewhere, there are a lot of unknowns this time. Will the fact that Romney was born in Michigan help him win that state? Will Paul Ryan's state of Wisconsin vote for him? What of the Jeb Bush factor in Florida? Very early on in the proceedings, long before Romney became the Republican candidate, all the signs were that this would be a close contest. With just days to go, there is little to suggest that it won't be. Let's just hope that the phrase "hanging chad" isn't about to make a spectacular comeback.
                              Last edited by Guest; 03-11-12, 19:19.

                              Comment

                              • ahinton
                                Full Member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 16123

                                Hanging chad? What about neck and redneck?

                                Comment

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