A most flawed process indeed

[Lateralthinking1]

I might as well put my cards on the table here, knowing that it will appear illiberal and be unpopular. I ended one very good friendship when the person concerned made his third girlfriend in a row pregnant and for the third time in a row a girlfriend of his had an abortion.

I support the right to abortion in the case of rape. I feel that the right to abortion in other circumstances on the NHS should be permitted once in an individual's lifetime. This applies both to women and men. I am absolutely horrified in what is the fifth decade of reliable contraception that abortion is frequently seen as contraception in itself.

And I do agree absolutely that consensus attitudes on that issue, among others, with their over-emphasis on rights above responsibilities, have contributed significantly towards a cultural disrespect for others' lives. That is seen to some extent in every policy from the military to the economic. It does loom in this matter too.

[MrGongGong]

Please don't conflate the right to abortion with this issue
they really have little to do with each other (unless of course you take your guide from a rather dodgy man in a frock in Italy !!!)

[Lateralthinking1]

I am not a Roman Catholic. C of E on the certificate for what it is worth.

[aeolium]

I wouldn't deny anyone the right to commit suicide

Though what you were arguing in msg 34 suggested that you thought people really shouldn't have the choice to take their own life. Isn't this really at the heart of your opposition to this change - you would like to make it as difficult as possible for people to exercise their right to suicide, even if it results in bodies on train lines, people dying of carbon monoxide poisoning in cars, or hanging in garages? Or even if it means - for those lucky enough to afford it - a trip to a Swiss clinic on an industrial estate?

And to compare this proposal with the risk of someone driving at 120 mph is quite ludicrous, imo. Here is some information on the operation of assisted dying legislation in Oregon:

'An independent study published in the October 2007 issue of the Journal of Medical Ethics reports there was "no evidence of heightened risk for the elderly, women, the uninsured, people with low educational status, the poor, the physically disabled or chronically ill, minors, people with psychiatric illnesses including depression, or racial or ethnic minorities, compared with background populations."'

[MrGongGong]

NO

My opposition is based on the fact that we are unable to protect vulnerable people
if you want to jump off Beachy Head then that's fine by me (I'd rather you didn't !)
I simply don't trust our society to protect the most vulnerable , this is based on personal experience

To call this piece of publicity a "commission" and to call a Lego house on an industrial estate a "clinic" is disingenuous

[scottycelt]

Please don't conflate the right to abortion with this issue
they really have little to do with each other (unless of course you take your guide from a rather dodgy man in a frock in Italy !!!)

Very funny ... and how original, Mr GG! ...

The connection between legalised abortion and legalised voluntary euthanasiaia is indeed 'blindingly obvious'. The latter is a clear, logical development of the former. We don't really need any religious leaders in frocks or even pants telling us that ... well, some of us, anyway.

Letting already well-established forum Romophobia get in the way of sensible, rational discussion does your own otherwise excellent contributions on the matter no favours whatsoever!

[aeolium]

I simply don't trust our society to protect the most vulnerable , this is based on personal experience

Though I notice you don't comment on the report I quoted from based on a review into the operation of assisted dying in Oregon over 10 years. Still, no doubt your own personal experience is more authoritative

That report was also mentioned in this article which showed that the introduction of assisted dying in Oregon did not increase suicide rates. And this ties in with comments by those, like Terry Pratchett, who argue for assisted dying to be introduced here, to the effect that it does not mean there will be a rush to take advantage of it - on the contrary, it is more of a reassurance that that option is there.

[John Skelton]

The connection between legalised abortion and legalised voluntary euthanasiaia is indeed 'blindingly obvious'.

It's only 'blindingly obvious' if you are blind to the blindingly obvious difference between abortion and euthanasia. Or believe that one unconnected thing inevitably leads to another unconnected thing. Ethically blind, as it were.

[scottycelt]

It's only 'blindingly obvious' if you are blind to the blindingly obvious difference between abortion and euthanasia. Or believe that one unconnected thing inevitably leads to another unconnected thing. Ethically blind, as it were.

Well, one 'unconnected thing' (abortion) has now led to calls for the other 'unconnected thing' (voluntary euthanasia) just as some confidently predicted it would. The 'thin end of the wedge', 'slippery slope', call it what you like.

Coincidence? ... or simply a 'blindingly obvious' connection? ... take your pick!

[John Skelton]

Well, one 'unconnected thing' (abortion) has now led to calls for the other 'unconnected thing' (voluntary euthanasia) just as some confidently predicted it would. The 'thin end of the wedge', 'slippery slope', call it what you like.

Coincidence? ... or simply a 'blindingly obvious' connection? ... take your pick!

Of course it hasn't. People "confidently predict" all sorts of things and turn round and say I told you so when there's no connection between the two other than in their heads - no logical connection, no ethical connection, no moral connection. Do supporters of assisted dying say 'now that we have legal abortion, why not make it legal to help someone end their own life?' Of course they don't: not because they don't want to let some cat out of a bag, but because anyone who is capable of telling the difference between a fetus under 24 weeks and someone who has consciousness and an existential history would ask 'what has that got to do with it?'

The only slippery slope is the one you are on.

[scottycelt]

Of course it hasn't. People "confidently predict" all sorts of things and turn round and say I told you so when there's no connection between the two other than in their heads - no logical connection, no ethical connection, no moral connection. Do supporters of assisted dying say 'now that we have legal abortion, why not make it legal to help someone end their own life?' Of course they don't: not because they don't want to let some cat out of a bag, but because anyone who is capable of telling the difference between a fetus under 24 weeks and someone who has consciousness and an existential history would ask 'what has that got to do with it?'

The only slippery slope is the one you are on.

In what way ... ?

Like the BMA itself, I humbly submit that I'm very firmly 'on the level' and simply defending the current laws on assisted suicide that were introduced in order to safeguard the weak and vulnerable. There used to be similar laws in the case of then illegal abortion. Both concern the deliberate ending of human life albeit at different stages and different circumstances. Both practices are wide open to abuse and exploitation of the weak and vulnerable by others and can then lead to unintended consequences including calls for even further easing of laws. That's the point, the quite obvious (to some) connection, and precisely 'what it has got to do with it'.

[teamsaint]

quite how the abortion on a huge scale isn't an attack on the (most) vulnerable, is beyond me.

For many people there iS a strong link between encouraging "assisted suicide" , which can easily become a convenient form of murder, and industrial scale abortion.
You don't have to be a Roman Catholic to believe that. I'm not.

and I also happen to think that plenty of RCs have enough brain to think things through for themselves, and don't just take their orders from Rome.

[MrGongGong]

Though I notice you don't comment on the report I quoted from based on a review into the operation of assisted dying in Oregon over 10 years. Still, no doubt your own personal experience is more authoritative

That report was also mentioned in this article which showed that the introduction of assisted dying in Oregon did not increase suicide rates. And this ties in with comments by those, like Terry Pratchett, who argue for assisted dying to be introduced here, to the effect that it does not mean there will be a rush to take advantage of it - on the contrary, it is more of a reassurance that that option is there.

I didn't realise (realize ?) we lived in America
I said that I don't think WE , that is US , HERE IN THE UK, are able to do this

As Bowie says "this is not America"

[John Skelton]

For many people there iS a strong link between encouraging "assisted suicide", which can easily become a convenient form of murder, and industrial scale abortion

I don't have a view on assisted suicide, as it happens, but I wasn't aware that "encouraging" it was at issue here. That's your extrapolation. As is your claim that it can "easily become a convenient form of murder" and the associative bathos of "industrial scale."

Just because "for many people" there "IS" one doesn't mean that there is a link, though: not in a logical or ethical sense. Many people make connections because they have a feeling about something or because those connections fit with other sets of beliefs they may have. That's fine, until they start claiming some sort of logical or ethical status for a belief or an emotion just because they happen to have it.

scottycelt: is the legal availability of contraception part of the slippery slope leading to "voluntary euthanasia"?

[teamsaint]

I don't have a view on assisted suicide, as it happens, but I wasn't aware that "encouraging" it was at issue here. That's your extrapolation. As is your claim that it can "easily become a convenient form of murder" and the associative bathos of "industrial scale."

Just because "for many people" there "IS" one doesn't mean that there is a link, though: not in a logical or ethical sense. Many people make connections because they have a feeling about something or because those connections fit with other sets of beliefs they may have. That's fine, until they start claiming some sort of logical or ethical status for a belief or an emotion just because they happen to have it.

scottycelt: is the legal availability of contraception part of the slippery slope leading to "voluntary euthanasia"?

What term would you use for the scale of abortion in the country?
Industrial scale is about right IMO, since it amounts to an industry.