America is now a police state - why isn't this being widely reported?!

**aka Calum Da Jazbo** · 06-01-12, 10:27

this bill gives the USA self appointed authority to arrest and detain UK citizens without trial as well as USA citizens ... it can no longer be a legally valid applicant for the deportation of suspects from the UK unless it grants habeas corpus ...???? oh well i guess they will just extraordinarily render people in the same ol same ol then ....

**Budapest** · 06-01-12, 17:31

Calum, I believe they are still arguing over the Gary McKinnon case. McKinnon could easily be viewed as 'a terrorist' in American eyes, and thus he might not receive due process. In my opinion there's no way he should be allowed to be extradited to the USA (just look at the way Bradley Manning has been treated, and he's an American citizen).

Cases like Gary McKinnon's highlight how it's all going terribly wrong in America, but I seem to be one of the lone voices in the wilderness. I am reminded of the 1930s, when the world sleepwalked into the Nazi nightmare.

**Lateralthinking1** · 06-01-12, 18:40

Budapest - Your posts deserve comment but I cannot offer much as I don't fully understand the issue. First, doesn't Obama's comment contradict the intention of the Act? If so, that is somewhat bizarre. Next, any effective tool for tackling terrorism would also be applicable to national citizens. Perhaps the British experience makes that clearer to us here. Thirdly, am I right or wrong in thinking from Calum's comments that it would make another McKinnon theoretically less likely? If so, that seems ironic.

Clearly the handing over of the powers of detention to the military and crucially for them to hold people without trial indefinitely is a frightening move. Whether that is any more extreme than the existence of the death penalty in many states is more open to debate. In that context, it doesn't seem to be a complete watershed. They do things differently there.

As for fascism, any regular reader of the old BBC boards would have seen the words "fascist" and "Nazi" written loosely, normally in the context of race or camera technology. Some were criticized for resorting to them too quickly and I might have agreed.

However, there is movement towards a kind of fascism in the UK. This while identifiable is rather different from anything in history. Race doesn't come into it. The sort of issue you raise has done, ie in discussion of the number of days someone could be detained here. There is an awful lot more. Much of it is not being seen by those who are walking us into it although some of it is so.

It needs someone to get a grip on it fast but at the moment it is like telling those who think that the world is flat that actually it is round. It will only be tackled by a full bringing together of the issues to show how the new fascism is becoming defined. And because of the way in which our societies operate, that could only happen effectively if undertaken by an eminent person!

**Budapest** · 06-01-12, 21:37

Lateralthinking1, the President of the United States does not have as much power as is commonly perceived. Obama was forced to sign the National Defense Authorization Act by Congress and the Senate, who voted overwhelmingly for it (which begs another largely unasked question: why the hell are they passing laws like this in the first place?!). Of course, Obama could have vetoed the Act, and now that it's been passed he still has a six month window in which he can do this. I make no distinction between Republicans and Democrats, and think they're all a bunch of you-know-whats (just as many Democrats voted for the NDAA as Republicans). I will say, though, that if Obama doesn't veto this Act in the next six months he will go down in history as the President who betrayed America and the world.

On February the 3rd there’s going to be a nationwide protest against the National Defense Authorization Act (which I'm sure you've heard about in the UK media. Ha, ha). I know quite a lot of people in America and the feedback I'm getting is that this protest is going to be big time. Americans really have had enough, and the NDAA is the last straw. Imagine if a law was passed in Britain stating that UK citizens can be detained indefinitely without trial, how would you feel?

Whatever people feel about the death penalty (and I'm against it, of course) it's done through proper legal procedure. Ironically, because of the long drawn-out legal process the death penalty is many, many times more expensive than banging someone up for life. The terrifying point about the National Defense Authorization Act is that there is no legal process whatsoever. Some shadowy bureaucrat decides that you're 'a terrorist' and that's it, you're whisked off and can be detained forever (with no communication with the outside world, which is also in law).

What's that old cliche..? when America sneezes Britain catches a cold, or something like that. Did you see that debate in Parliament before Christmas, when Cameron returned from the EU summit after saying 'no'? It was classic House of Commons stuff, with the Labour benches calling many on the Conservative benches the 'Tea Party of Britain'. There's a lot of truth in that. I should also add that I strongly dislike the polarisation of politics and want to keep it out of this thread. If you want to join a tribe, well, go join a tribe. Politics is much, much more important than such facile stuff.

RE: fascism. At the moment there's lots of stuff knocking about on the internet that directly compares today's America with Nazi Germany. Some of it holds up yet much of it is rubbish. In 2003 an American guy called Laurence Britt published an article called Fascism Anyone? This article did the rounds during the 2004 US elections and you may be familiar with it. Britt studied the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile). He found that they all had 14 things in common. Britt calls these ‘the identifying characteristics of fascism’, which are…

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of “need.” The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6. Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions.

9 .Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

A lot of what I'm posting here comes from my blog. For those interested: The Burgundy Blog

**Frances_iom** · 06-01-12, 22:22

There is a sizeable minority of Americans who do realise what is going on - their Nation has become a Corporate State in that laws are drafted by large business via the money given to senators + congress for re-election expenses they control both houses and under newly passed law can fund highly negative attacks on any opponents without breaking the extremely generous limits on election spending. Effectively the US goverment has been totally corrupt for many years.

Catch is that England (+ maybe Wales as I can't see it getting detached quickly enough - the Scots alrady have seen the light and should be safe) are moving in this direction - look at privatisation of NHS that will go through next year , the growing disparity between rich + poor ...

**Budapest** · 06-01-12, 23:13

Frances_iom said: There is a sizeable minority of Americans who do realise what is going on

The question we're all asking is: will there be an 'American Spring'?

With regard to the UK, I've seen my country go down the tubes over the last 30 years. It has nothing to do with 'immigrants' or 'socialism' (despite what the mostly right wing media may tell you). It has everything to do with neoliberalism and consumerism and rampant greed which promotes a lack of caring for our fellow human beings. You might all have houses and big cars and all the rest of it, but what kind of a piss-hole society do Brits now live in?!

**Lateralthinking1** · 06-01-12, 23:23

Goodness. Thank you Budapest for your post. It looks as if the bringing together of a definition for the new fascism is well in hand. What is interesting - and accurate in my view - is that race is one part of one of the fourteen things on that list. This contrasts significantly with the knee-jerk reaction in Britain that fascism is racial prejudice and a few other bits and pieces. Germany of the 1930s in other words as witnessed to an extent in elements here. The BNP. Everything else is supposedly fine and dandy.

A strong point in the summary is the fact that it doesn't emphasise consistent theory but rather tells it as situations have been. This coincides with my view, which is taken from a broad consensus, that fascism tends to emerge unlike socialism and communism which are built upon theory. The similarities say to me that emergence develops and grows into a bleak coherent whole. By contrast, history tends to show theory based politics as leading to divisions based on interpretation which are then frequently hammered down. The weaker part of it is in its gearing towards the US as it has always been to some extent. Certainly much of it would have applied during the McCarthy era and a fair amount even in the less oppressive times of someone like Jimmy Carter. Since the Reagan era, the closer alliance of politics and religion has provided a different dimension and it has seemed alien to traditional British sensibilities. More recently, focus has been on the banks for obvious reasons.

While I veer towards the liberal - I would be reasonably comfortable as a Democrat in the US whereas I am uncomfortable with all parties here - I am not easily pigeon holed. Most aspects of the churchy right wing appal me - there are draconian views there that claim to represent freedom - but on a few things I feel they have a point. It seems to me that the more obvious freedom of liberalism, when inflicted to saturation point, can itself become oppressive while there can be some additional freedom from required responsibility. The banks worry me more than religion. When Governments become the puppets of the unaccountable, they are themselves required to act in undemocratic ways. I have heard so many times from ordinary folk here that they used to think that it was worth blaming the party in power but now feel that it isn't actually Governments who are in charge. This is where the problems for democracy are occurring in Europe. Politicians are working to please the bankers.

It is in this light that all policy must be assessed by voters. Once it was a question of what is in the best interests for me, or us, or our country, or for the moral good. Now it is all about the hidden motivation. So if you look at the arguments for and against international aid, they used to be about its affordability, effectiveness or decency. Now we are told that it is money well spent because we will need to trade with those nations. When you look at the cutbacks on disability benefits and the rise in the pension age, among many other things, there is a kind of multicultural aryanism there if I might describe it in those terms. You don't have to be blue eyed and fair haired but you do have to be a superfit working unit not to feel the kosh of it. It is survival of the fittest, the like of which we have not experienced before in our lifetimes, and it is there to serve the banks more than anyone else.

I don't doubt that 9/11 represented a turning point. Weak politicians panicked and created fear. As we looked for the enemy in the caves, it became easy for the financiers to become the enemy within. Once our elected representatives realised that they had to choose between the public and the bankers, they decided on the latter. They had no choice economically. The emphasis on external terror remains to divert attention and keep the disgruntled in their place. High unemployment and low wages are a good start. Keep 'em focussed on personal survival. It is recognised that the potential for disharmony is huge, hence all the surveillance. People will put up with it if they see, as Hitchens did, that a greater fascism is alive and well in extreme Islamification. But keeping that in context is essential if we are not simply to experience in the western world a more moderate form of totalitarianism.

The stooge-like quality of the Republican candidates is worrying for anyone who supports human rights although I will just add as an Obama man, sort of, that I feel instinctively that Romney is underrated and may surprisingly be a reasonably honourable man.

**teamsaint** · 06-01-12, 23:23

one aspect of this is that it will help keep US prison population numbers at the current sky high level, and keep the slave labour that they represent.

The reason all this stuff isn't being reported is that our media don't want to report it, (well they wouldn't would they). Also, sadly, many of our people are not ready to hear it.(a lot of people are really not aware even of the current economic dangers in Europe).

It is up to ordinary people to spread the word in these issues...its important work that we have to do.

**Frances_iom** · 07-01-12, 00:39

wait until the Olympics start and to encourage American tourists (the UK spelling in USA its terrists) the Met adopts the same approaches as TSA now expanding into guarding all communication systems with stop + search, groping in body cavities etc + the imposition of body scanners etc London tube entrances - I can't see an American spring - its too good for those that control the media, corporations etc to allow any dissent to get a toe hold - don't forget the US has the SOPA act under discussion (+ likely to be passed) in which any website can be shut down then questions asked - warentless wiretaps on US citizins (supposedly illegal under constitution) were retorspectively declared legal when challenged

**Sydney Grew** · 07-01-12, 02:05

Northern America is like one enormous film noir. I would not expect to find rationality, discrimination or justice there. Just keep well clear, if you are able!

**marthe** · 07-01-12, 04:48

Originally posted by Sydney Grew View Post

Northern America is like one enormous film noir. I would not expect to find rationality, discrimination or justice there. Just keep well clear, if you are able!

Good Heavens, Mr. Grew. Some of us actually live there.

**aka Calum Da Jazbo** · 07-01-12, 15:31

Good Heavens, Mr. Grew. Some of us actually live there.

seconded marthe. the USA is a lot more complex than any generalisation from this side of the pond can do justice to .... however the presumption and arrogance of much American legislation regarding the citizens of other countries, or in our case, subjects of another monarch, are offensive to many ...

**marthe** · 07-01-12, 16:50

I agree with you Calum. I'm not at all keen on the "presumption and arrogance" either. For starters, immigration law in the US is just a nightmare...but don't get me started lest I feel the need to bring the soap box out of its corner. I have no desire to get into any long-winded rants here.

**Budapest** · 07-01-12, 20:49

Originally posted by Sydney Grew View Post

Northern America is like one enormous film noir. I would not expect to find rationality, discrimination or justice there. Just keep well clear, if you are able!

The problem is that what goes on in America has a profound impact on the rest of the world. The obvious one is that the American police state could result in another world war (I know, I'm a jolly soul this evening). Perhaps a less obvious one is that most of the internet’s infrastructure and key businesses are under US jurisdiction.

Later this month the muppets on Capitol Hill are likely to pass another set of, er, interesting laws, embodied in the Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA) and the PROTECT IP Act (which Frances mentioned a number of posts back). These Acts are purportedly to stop online piracy. All well and good, but there’s a much darker side to it. Heres what Sergey Brin, co-founder of Google, has said about these Acts (see here)…

The bills give the U.S. government and copyright holders extraordinary powers including the ability to hijack DNS and censor search results (and this is even without so much as a proper court trial). While I support their goal of reducing copyright infringement (which I don’t believe these acts would accomplish), I am shocked that our lawmakers would contemplate such measures that would put us on a par with the most oppressive nations in the world.

The DNS that Sergey Brin mentions stands for ‘Domain Name System’. To cut the technical stuff, DNS basically is the address system for web sites (www.google.com or bbc.co.uk for example). DNS is controlled by ICANN (Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers) and IANA (Internet Assigned Numbers Authority) which are both under US jurisdiction. I will use this forum web site to show the implications of this: look up at the address bar of your browser and you’ll see that the domain name is www.for3.org. Supposing the US Government doesn’t like what people say on this forum (ha!), once these Acts are passed they’ll have the power to revoke the domain name. What this means is, when you type ‘www.for3.org’ into your browser it won’t work anymore; you’ll get a notice from the US Government or a redirect (probably to a government propaganda site). Bear in mind that most of us here are not US citizens and have broken no laws in our own countries.

The revoking of domain names has already started, even before the SOPA and the PROTECT IP Acts have been passed. In 2008, Steve Marshall, a British guy who runs a travel agency in Spain, had his company domain names revoked by the US Government (see here). Apparently, Marshall had found a way for US tourists to visit Cuba (for many years now the US Government has banned its citizens from travelling to Cuba). Marshall was able to get up and running again by using a .net domain through a European registrar; and this is where it gets complicated, because control of the internet is not only about who handles the DNS numbers, it is also about domain registrars and companies that host web sites. Bottom line, though, is the DNS numbers, which are controlled by American organisations (they could still shut down Marshall again if they wanted to).

In recent years there’s been calls for the DNS system to be handled by the United Nations. America has resisted this. Now, with the Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA) and the PROTECT IP Act everyone is panicking, including the European Union, who have recently issued a resolution stressing “the need to protect the integrity of the global internet and freedom of communication by refraining from unilateral measures to revoke IP addresses or domain names.” (see here) If these Acts are passed we will find ourselves in the situation of having the entire internet controlled by a police state, America. If this does happen the free world will have to create its own internet.

Much of what I've said in this thread comes from a number of blog postings I've made this week. As I sit there typing this stuff I've often had to pause, in sheer disbelief at what's actually happening (America a police state), but it is happening and the people who need to wake-up to it the most are Americans. There's still time to stop this nightmare.

America is now a police state - why isn't this being widely reported?!

America is now a police state - why isn't this being widely reported?!

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