Lawrence verdict in - guilty

[Lateralthinking1]

I very much welcome this news and hope that the others are brought to trial soon.

The background of Norris in particular was highly unusual. However, I really do hope that future focus will not be just on the two of them - or five - or six - and on the police. The members of the gang may have operated as if they were on their own diabolical island but that island flourished because of ongoing complexities in society.

We need political solutions. Extreme violent crime among youth in London is out of control. Much of it directly reflects the inadequacies of governance. There is no reason to think that Hogan-Howe and his team will duck policing reform. For once, we have a policeman who focuses on policing rather than media and politics. Parliament though has to do its bit.

For starters, as the compulsory school leaving age is about to rise to 17 and later to 18, it is a good time to look at the broad legal definitions of adulthood. I strongly believe that the full weight of the law should be applicable to those aged 16 when, after all, the law accepts that people are old enough to be responsible parents to others.

[Pabmusic]

I was pleased to see this from Michael Mansfield, which confirms what I posted earlier (phew!):

"I know there will be those who will be wanting heavier sentences or expecting heavier sentences, as the judge himself said.

Actually, they have been sentenced to a life sentence, so what we are talking about is minimums here. In terms of a minimum, obviously there'll be nothing off that - they'll have to do that, they'll have to do the 15 and the 14 [years] - and then the parole board will consider them.

In this particular case, given the nature of the original offence, given their own denial throughout, given the surveillance video which showed a deep-seated hatred, bigotry and violence, it seems to me a parole board will take very great care before releasing these two onto the streets of any city anywhere in the world.

So I think people should be reassured. Otherwise we are getting back into a situation where it becomes pure retribution, and I think sentencing shouldn't be that."

[Lateralthinking1]

And now this is going to be reviewed because of a request from a member of the public. I didn't know such a thing was possible. Perhaps we all should explore this area more. It appears to be a loophole in the system for enabling a modicum of people power.

Did the person pay? Did he/she go via a lawyer? Did they just pick up the phone? Could it apply to decisions made in a judicial review or does it only apply to prison sentencing?

I made a prediction to myself the moment Diane Abbott tweeted to the country that no one on this forum would mention it.
That has proven to be correct. What I was attempting to say in my lengthy comments - in fact I said it - was that everyone needs to get more real on the matter of racism. Here, I think, the younger are developing a new worldview.

While I feel we can continue to acknowledge the dire legacy of colonialism and slavery, I regret the context that is not permitted for discussion and which is always shirked by the liberal left. The white working class in Britain were slaves to the white middle class in Britain less than one hundred years ago. The idea of going to Oxbridge and becoming an MP was so laughable as never to have been on their radar. Actually it really sickens me to see the "hard done by history" agenda exploited by people like her.

And she has form in this area. Conveniently no one has mentioned that she once spoke of there being a gap between blonde, blue eyed, Finnish nurses and black patients or that Cameron was just a middle class white boy. As we wait, and hope, for an increase in the sentences - although I agree with the ever valiant Mike Mansfield that we should avoid retribution - I would describe her comments as distinctly unhelpful. They sound to me like they emanate from racist impulses rather than being a slip of the keys.

[Lateralthinking1]

......And now an attack on taxi drivers - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...assengers.html.

Here Michael White of the Guardian excuses her behaviour - http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/b...w-over-excited

And here the Jamaican Observer condemns it - http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/busin...er-mouth-again

I'm with Jamaica.

[amateur51]

......And now an attack on taxi drivers - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...assengers.html.

Here Michael White of the Guardian excuses her behaviour - http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/b...w-over-excited

And here the Jamaican Observer condemns it - http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/busin...er-mouth-again

I'm with Jamaica.

I'm surprised to find your raising this paean to Jamaica, Lats - as a society and a culture it has a long track-record of homophobia

http://www.theroot.com/views/jamaica...ent-homophobia

[Stillhomewardbound]

Diane Abbot, whom I admire in some respects, is inclined to be a more than a little peevish. A prima donna, indeed, and she hates to back down from a particular point even in the face of a good call.

So, 'they try to divide us', or the like, is frequently her default mode. It's much simpler than admitting that hers may not be the only view of events.

[Lateralthinking1]

am51, My comments were about the Jamaican Observer's view of Diane Abbott's contradictions. Regrettably her grandiosity distances her from any real connection with recent white working class history. I find it deeply insulting to the memory of my grandparents to hear someone of her privileged background distorting the true message that their lives were far more disadvantaged than those of the overwhelming majority of people today.

As for Jamaica the country, I have described on the forum before how I was influenced when young in a very positive way by a black Jamaican teacher. She too was middle class. She was responsible more than anyone else for my openness to people of all racial backgrounds and associated cultural interests and study. I love traditional reggae but don't listen to modern homophobic artists whose music even in the absence of lyrics is always second rate, Lat.

[Pabmusic]

And now this is going to be reviewed because of a request from a member of the public. I didn't know such a thing was possible. Perhaps we all should explore this area more. It appears to be a loophole in the system for enabling a modicum of people power.

'
This is no doubt part of the (very long) battle between 'the public/media/politicians' and 'the judges' over sentencing. Where life sentences are concerned (as here) there has long been a desire to let the public know at the time of sentencing exactly how long the particular person will spend in prison. But that cannot be foretold because of the indeterminate nature of the life sentence, so all the emphasis is on setting the minimum period. This used to be sorted out within about three years of the sentence through consultations with the trial judge and Lord Chief Justice, but that's now seen as too secretive, and it's now for the trial judge to announce at the hearing. Of course, this can lead to hasty decisions (I'm not implying that this has happened here) of a lesser quality than before, but it's more 'open'. Trouble is that the minimum sentence is always now assumed to be the whole sentence, which it is most certainly not. After the minimum sentence has been served, a process begins of consideration for parole, where the sole consideration is risk. That can prolong the time in custody by years, if not for ever. The (understandable) desire to make sentencing open and clear has led to confusion where life sentences are concerned.

[Stillhomewardbound]

Every race on the planet displays racist tendencies - name me one that doesn't - however non-ethnic britons, as subjects of a former colonial power, are assumed to have it in their blood like some variety of original sin.

Certainly, Diane Abbott imagines we work to some specific scheme to get at the ethnic community. Well, realistically, some people could simply do with building a bridge and getting over themselves. Such as the people in certain parts of London I pass through who actively suck their teeth in my direction

It really would be little skin off my nose except that they don't know anything of my history. They neither imagine nor care that I too earlier in my life was subject to regular racism and they have not the nouse to accept that such negative energy is demeaning of them as a community and not of me. After all, it doesn't get me down. I've been there before and I've always ignored and just got on with life.

In the 50s and 60s the signs in the lodging houses and the like used to say 'No Irish/No blacks'.

Well, these days, I hear almost no talk of the Irish in Britain being racially abused. So, what happened? In their ongoing 'scheme' did non-ethnic britons decide to let the Irish of the hook?

No. I simply suggest the Irish got on with building a bridge and ... you know the rest.

[amateur51]

Interesting stuff from a [obviously] self-selecting group ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/08/peoples-panel-stop-and-search

[Lateralthinking1]

I do genuinely take the point. You have to wonder quite what has happened, if anything, in the 30 years since Stop and Search was identified by Scarman and when I sat with other university types - all white - discussing this very matter in a tut-tut fashion.

Still, it would be good to have a colourblind sample. How many times have you been stopped and searched? In the very same year as my discussions, I was walking alone at 1am along Heslington Road in York to get the night bus to London. Pathetically, I was taking my clothes on a 200 mile journey to be washed. The police stopped me and went through every item of my clothing. More fool them, I thought, and knowing that I had nothing to hide was quite happy for them to waste their time in that way.

Then very slightly later during the period of a holiday job, I had just got into my car on the top floor of a multi-storey car park in Croydon and sensed that people were standing beside the vehicle. And they were. It was the police again and again I was searched. 6pm on a summer evening. The problem you see was that I was young and I also looked very young for my age.

For decades, I was nearly always searched on going into concerts and football matches. The reason was that the police felt that being someone at a concert or a football match was suspicious in itself. They still do. I assumed it protected my safety.

[amateur51]

How many times have you been stopped and searched?

I'm 60 and I've never been stopped & searched.

I've been mugged

I've never been invited to an orgy

[Lateralthinking1]

Maybe you weren't eight stone with the face of a 14 year old at the age of 20 - very dark white complexion.

[Ferretfancy]

I had a friend who looked ridiculously young for his age, and was slightly built. He was married with three kids. He drove a scooter to work, and was stopped so many times that he had to give up riding it. One problem that is rarely mentioned is that recruitment for the police is so easy,basic ability to read and write seems to be all that's required. I'm not suggesting that academic ability is all important, but if people enjoy education it does rather suggest improved social attitude, or am I being all middle class again ?

[amateur51]

Maybe you weren't eight stone with the face of a 14 year old at the age of 20 - very dark white complexion.

Sounds tough, Lats

When I was young I was frequently mistaken for Harry Secombe, which is a cross quite big enough to bear, thank you!!