The numinous in music

[EdgeleyRob]

almost all of RVW 5

Also most of RVW 3 and 9.There are so many of these moments for me, especially in Elgar,Finzi and Vaughan Williams.
A strange one for me is the Bach/Busoni chaconne in D minor.I can't explain why but there are moments in it which really get to me and yet the same moments in the original Bach don't have the same effect.

[cloughie]

I think I get it now.

Certain bits of Mahler 2, Elgar 1 (Bridge from 2nd to 3rd movts), Daphnis & Chloe (The entry of the wordless chorus at the beginning of the complete ballet), parts of Firebird, Mother Goose, Antar, Tchaik Manfred, La Mer, Slow movt of Beethoven Choral and the first organ entry in SS 3rd.

Also non-classical certain bits of King Crimson's Court of the Crimson King album, Joni Mitchell's Both Sides Now album and Pink floyd's Dark Side.

[vinteuil]

Most often, it's a moment, a brief passage, within a work;

....

... same here. Sometimes (for me) it's just a bar-and-a-half of a Scarlatti sonata, with an unexpected harmonic move - and - like Blake, you suddenly "see the World in a Grain of Sand" - like Traherne:
"Suppose a river, or a drop of water, an apple or a sand, an ear of corn or an herb: God knoweth infinite excellencies in it more than we: He seeth how it relateth to angels and men; how it proceedeth from the most perfect Lover to the most perfectly Beloved; how it representeth all His attributes; how it conduceth in its place, by the best of means to the best of ends: and for this cause it cannot be beloved too much... "

[Richard Tarleton]

Also non-classical certain bits of King Crimson's Court of the Crimson King album, Joni Mitchell's Both Sides Now album and Pink floyd's Dark Side.

I think the nearest I've got to it in a non-classical situation was during a set by Santana (opening for Bob Dylan in 1984) - Carlos Santana went off on one for about 20 minutes, his 5 percussionists were pounding away....mind you it could also have had something to do with all the weed that was being smoked in my immediate vicinity

[Richard Tarleton]

... same here. Sometimes (for me) it's just a bar-and-a-half of a Scarlatti sonata, with an unexpected harmonic move - and - like Blake, you suddenly "see the World in a Grain of Sand" - like Traherne:
"Suppose a river, or a drop of water, an apple or a sand, an ear of corn or an herb: God knoweth infinite excellencies in it more than we: He seeth how it relateth to angels and men; how it proceedeth from the most perfect Lover to the most perfectly Beloved; how it representeth all His attributes; how it conduceth in its place, by the best of means to the best of ends: and for this cause it cannot be beloved too much... "

Sorry to lower the tone

[Ferretfancy]

It's interesting to me that many on these boards sense the numinous in different Mahler symphonies. I can never listen to any of them without being aware of contrivance from first note to last, and that means that if the numinous quality is there, it has passed me by. I dislike Gerontius for similar reasons. Of course, all music must be contrived, even Mozart had to decide what to include and what to leave out, but I feel that in Mahler's case the feeling is simply not there, for all its moments of beauty between the bombast.

I know that I am probably due for a dressing down, but there it is, especially as I love those composers who are influenced by Mahler, such as Britten and Shostakovich.

[Alison]

But then you always seem to be there at the big London Mahler concerts, FF !!!!!!!!

[kernelbogey]

[...] To take my example of Winterreise [...] the slow decline of the protagonist into despondency ends with the confrontation with the Leiermann (hurdy-gurdy player) who, though frozen, keeps playing. It is a moment of profound despair in the words and the music, yet my experience of that final Lied is a perfect expression of how, as humans, we continue on our winter journey through despair - and often without knowing how the journey will end. It is this power to express that bitter-sweetness and profound uncertainty that comes through in so much of Schubert (as Richard says).

Ferret - I'd say the above is also true of the numinous moments in Mahler - e.g. the shattering climax in the first movement of No 2, or, yes, the closing pages of 9.

[Serial_Apologist]

Surprising that no one has yet mentioned Holst; numerous examples could be cited, I'll just mention three from The Planets - two occurring after massive climactic build-ups evaporate into equivalences of weightlessness, in the Saturn and Uranus movements, and the third the entire Neptune movement.

Elsewhere I would draw attention to the extraordinary beginning section of Schoenberg's Die Glueckliche Haend, those overlapping sung and spoken layers against a gentle ostinato pattern always evoke utterances from some credible Beyond, however many times I listen to this remarkable work, which, given how expectations born of familiarity can dull the sense which is the subject of this thread, is a kind of testament.

Another passage which achieves much the same kind of response in me occurs immediately in the aftermath of the famous corkscrew in Stockhausen's Kontakte - a kind of vacuum takes place in which all the preceding activity merges and slowly fades: one of the finest passages in music I know of in terms of drawing one into a state of present-centred consciousness, which I would interpret sensing the numinous through music to be about.

[jayne lee wilson]

Beautifully put, S-A...

You have to know the piece - at least a little, don't you? Has anyone experienced this on a first encounter? But once it's drained of all strangeness and secrecy, once you've heard it once too often...

I remember Karajan telling RO that after his second performance and recording of Mahler 9, he "would not dare to touch it again". He felt he had "drained" the piece "completely, completely!"

Rattle once said in an interview on R3, re. recordings, that the attempt to repeat any special experience was "something akin to pornography"!?
Oddly put, and I felt he was too uncompromising, and the Berlin Phil DCH might indicate a change of heart, but he felt (mid-1990s) that even radio was "a cheat" in finding those special experiences, as compared to being there.

It at least shows how he valued such things but no - it can happen anywhere, you can't seek it out. It's almost always spontaneous, pace S-A and Schoenberg.

Kernelbogey - re. der Leiermann:

"I can't go on. I can't go on. I'll go on." (Samuel Beckett)

[Serial_Apologist]

You have to know the piece - at least a little, don't you?

No - or well, at least, the less familiarised the passage the better I think.

PS Jayne - Sorry to hear about the passing of your beloved moggy.

[Petrushka]

Numinous moments may happen to me but not necessarily in different performances/recordings of the same work. I don't seek out such moments, they just happen and mostly in live performances. There are those times when something extraordinary happens and you can't sleep for a week afterwards. Specific times for me have included:

The end of the first movement of Bruckner 9 Concertgebouw/Haitink Proms 1983
The slow movement of Elgar 1 BBCSO/Haitink Proms 1982
The end of Mahler 8 LPO/Tennstedt RFH 1991
Mahler 2 CBSO/Rattle in the Rattle farewell 1998.
Shostakovich 7 first movement climax WOofP/Gergiev Proms 1998 (I was seated virtually in the orchestra - it was utterly incredible like being in the middle of a tornado)

[Serial_Apologist]

Numinous moments may happen to me but not necessarily in different performances/recordings of the same work. I don't seek out such moments, they just happen and mostly in live performances. There are those times when something extraordinary happens and you can't sleep for a week afterwards. Specific times for me have included:

The end of the first movement of Bruckner 9 Concertgebouw/Haitink Proms 1983
The slow movement of Elgar 1 BBCSO/Haitink Proms 1982
The end of Mahler 8 LPO/Tennstedt RFH 1991
Mahler 2 CBSO/Rattle in the Rattle farewell 1998.
Shostakovich 7 first movement climax WOofP/Gergiev Proms 1998 (I was seated virtually in the orchestra - it was utterly incredible like being in the middle of a tornado)

How well I remember, as a teenager just getting into "modern music", hearing for the very first time the third movement of Bartok's Music for Strings, Harp, Celesta and Percussion - a piece evocative of numinousness if ever there was one, (imho!), and a kind of musical breakthrough for me. And the sheer delight of observing the faces of those I was playing the piece for, who were likewise hearing it for the first time!

[Ferretfancy]

But then you always seem to be there at the big London Mahler concerts, FF !!!!!!!!

Yes, Alison, I have been to quite a few, and I'll happily confess that the performance of No. 3 by the LSO and Abbado at the Proms a a few years back was one of the best evenings I have ever spent in the Albert Hall. Mahler gives orchestras the opportunity for very fine playing, which I enjoy. It's just that I can't quite find the devotion for it that so many others on these pages experience.

[kernelbogey]

[...] You have to know the piece - at least a little, don't you? Has anyone experienced this on a first encounter? But once it's drained of all strangeness and secrecy, once you've heard it once too often. [...]

Hi Jayne - I did have this experience on first hearing Arvo Paert's Fratres - I think on Late Junction. I sought out a CD which had various versions of it - cello and piano, violin and piano, string quartet et al - and became completely obsessed with it. I couldn't figure out from listening alone 'how he did it'. Though not musically trained I had to try and write down the notes on a stave and then worked out how the varying sequence of phrases are arranged. Having done so it never lost its numinous quality for me. Oddly, I don't own a recording (perhaps should do something about that) but I'm sure it will remain fresh for me on future hearings - it always has. I can hear it in my head as I write, and feel that mystery.

Kernelbogey - re. der Leiermann:

"I can't go on. I can't go on. I'll go on." (Samuel Beckett)

Thanks for this - which play is it from? I guess it could come from almost any of them....

Kind regards, kb