Originally posted by rank_and_file
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Petition for Thatcher's state funeral to be privatised
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Norfolk Born
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Originally posted by ahinton View PostOn this occasion I can sympathise with at least some of what Mr Pee writes ....
"she [Mrs Thatcher] was elected only by rthe majority of voters in her own constituency": I don't know what the actual results of her elections were, but I very much doubt this. Under our present system an MP is elected if they are the candidate with the largest number of votes, which generally means that are voted for by a minority of those voting. I don't know of anyone (apart from Mr Bell & the sitting Speaker) who has been elected by a majority of voters.
"You don't mention anything bad that happened during the 1970s (the decade in which MT became Tory party leader), confining your list instead to wht you perceive to be the negative legacy of MT during the 80s." Can you give any examples of anything the Tories did that was good?
"As to tax rates, I do not see how reducing these when it's possible to do so is necessarily a harmful thing to do; "the greatest good of the greatest number" simply cannot be afforded out of local and national taxes because that "greatest number" simply can't afford to pay enough of them to allow it to be broughtg about." Local taxes (ie Council Tax), in combination with grants from central government, were manipulated by Thatcher (short-hand for Thatcher's government), by capping and other measures, to reduce local councils' powers, & therefore the ability of elected councils to act according to the wishes of their electors. National taxes were reduced on ideological grounds. Mrs T's starting point was to reduce government expenditure, not what needed to be spent to achieve, in Jayne's words, "the greatest good of the greatest number".
"Social housing stocks have depleted because local authorities just cannot afford to purchase and maintain them adequately and, as landlords, local authorities have legal obligations towards their tenants which they also find increasingly difficult to afford." Social housing stock were depleted becuase councils wsere forced to sell houses at grotesque discounts, far below their market value, & were not allowed to invest the proceeds in building more housing.
"As to "marketising" the NHS, it should be remembered that NHS needs to be run like a well-oiled business just like every other business if it is to succeed and, whatever one might say against it, it has succeeded pretty well over the years,
The NHS is not a business; far from being 'successful', the Tory-led marketisatikon has brought about fragmentation and a loss of focus on key principles.
"NHS has as shareholders the entire British population " No it doesn't - we are users, or clients, or even (god forbid) 'customers', not shareholders.
"How would government regulation of financial services have been a better thing than allowing this sector to deregulate? You can't regulate successfully against greed, " Well, you can at least try, & in so doing indicate that greed is unnacceptable. If the sector had been properly regulated some prosecutions or reigning-in would have been possible. As it is the sector has been allowed to run rampant, become 'too big to fail', with the result that the UK is failing. It was Thatcher's policies that started it & encouraged it.
"As to what you call "monetaristically-inspired mass unemployment", I have no evidence to suggest that governments led by MT regarded this or indeed any other "inspired" mass unemployment as a worth goal;" "Rising unemployment and the recession have been the price that we have had to pay to get inflation down. That price is well worth paying." Norman Lamont, 1991
"Anyway, to return to the topic, the petition is about how MT's funeral should be funded and why - and it is a patently ridiculous idea because not only is MT still alive, no one involved in it has appeared to question in advance the extent to which her family and her Estate would expect to fund it and, furthermore, since the notion of a "state funeral" presumes state funding, the very premise of the petition is contradictory, since one cannot have a "state funeral" funded by private industry. The question of a state funeral for MT has been in the public domain for at least 3 years, as this quote shows - "Margaret Thatcher will have a £3million state funeral - the first Prime Minister since Churchill to be given this honour - according to plans backed by the Queen and Gordon Brown. Hundreds of you see this as an insult to struggling taxpayers..." (Daily Mirror, 16/7/08, http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-sto...5875-20645518/). The 'State' aspect of a state funeral has less to do with the source of funding than the fact that it is a recognition by 'the state', which clearly in this case means recognition by the Queen. The funding could still be private even if ceremony involved the use of the armed forces and the police.
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Well, Flosshilde,Too much in your post to answer point by point, except to say that it is almost wholly wrong.
I think your second sentence sums up the problem- you refuse to accept that ANYTHING Mrs.T's government did was good; such a blinkered and narrow outlook will never lead to worthwhile debate.
Local taxes (ie Council Tax), in combination with grants from central government, were manipulated by Thatcher (short-hand for Thatcher's government), by capping and other measures, to reduce local councils' powers, & therefore the ability of elected councils to act according to the wishes of their electors. National taxes were reduced on ideological grounds. Mrs T's starting point was to reduce government expenditure, not what needed to be spent to achieve, in Jayne's words, "the greatest good of the greatest number".
"Social housing stocks have depleted because local authorities just cannot afford to purchase and maintain them adequately and, as landlords, local authorities have legal obligations towards their tenants which they also find increasingly difficult to afford." Social housing stock were depleted becuase councils wsere forced to sell houses at grotesque discounts, far below their market value, & were not allowed to invest the proceeds in building more housing.
The NHS is not a business; far from being 'successful', the Tory-led marketisatikon has brought about fragmentation and a loss of focus on key principles.
It was Thatcher's policies that started it & encouraged it.
Rising unemployment and the recession have been the price that we have had to pay to get inflation down. That price is well worth paying." Norman Lamont, 1991
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.
Mark Twain.
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amateur51
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Pilchardman
Originally posted by Norfolk Born View PostI don't understand why this thread has been allowed to continue, given the remarkably rapid closure of an earlier thread devoted to the same person.
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Pilchardman
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Originally posted by Flosshilde View Post"she [Mrs Thatcher] was elected only by rthe majority of voters in her own constituency": I don't know what the actual results of her elections were, but I very much doubt this. Under our present system an MP is elected if they are the candidate with the largest number of votes, which generally means that are voted for by a minority of those voting. I don't know of anyone (apart from Mr Bell & the sitting Speaker) who has been elected by a majority of voters.
Originally posted by Flosshilde View Post"You don't mention anything bad that happened during the 1970s (the decade in which MT became Tory party leader), confining your list instead to what you perceive to be the negative legacy of MT during the 80s." Can you give any examples of anything the Tories did that was good?
Originally posted by Flosshilde View Post"As to tax rates, I do not see how reducing these when it's possible to do so is necessarily a harmful thing to do; "the greatest good of the greatest number" simply cannot be afforded out of local and national taxes because that "greatest number" simply can't afford to pay enough of them to allow it to be brought about." Local taxes (ie Council Tax), in combination with grants from central government, were manipulated by Thatcher (short-hand for Thatcher's government), by capping and other measures, to reduce local councils' powers, & therefore the ability of elected councils to act according to the wishes of their electors. National taxes were reduced on ideological grounds. Mrs T's starting point was to reduce government expenditure, not what needed to be spent to achieve, in Jayne's words, "the greatest good of the greatest number".
Originally posted by Flosshilde View Post"Social housing stocks have depleted because local authorities just cannot afford to purchase and maintain them adequately and, as landlords, local authorities have legal obligations towards their tenants which they also find increasingly difficult to afford." Social housing stock were depleted becuase councils wsere forced to sell houses at grotesque discounts, far below their market value, & were not allowed to invest the proceeds in building more housing.
Originally posted by Flosshilde View Post"As to "marketising" the NHS, it should be remembered that NHS needs to be run like a well-oiled business just like every other business if it is to succeed and, whatever one might say against it, it has succeeded pretty well over the years,The NHS is not a business; far from being 'successful', the Tory-led marketisatikon has brought about fragmentation and a loss of focus on key principles.
Originally posted by Flosshilde View Post"NHS has as shareholders the entire British population " No it doesn't - we are users, or clients, or even (god forbid) 'customers', not shareholders.
Originally posted by Flosshilde View Post"How would government regulation of financial services have been a better thing than allowing this sector to deregulate? You can't regulate successfully against greed, " Well, you can at least try, & in so doing indicate that greed is unnacceptable. If the sector had been properly regulated some prosecutions or reigning-in would have been possible. As it is the sector has been allowed to run rampant, become 'too big to fail', with the result that the UK is failing. It was Thatcher's policies that started it & encouraged it.
Originally posted by Flosshilde View Post"As to what you call "monetaristically-inspired mass unemployment", I have no evidence to suggest that governments led by MT regarded this or indeed any other "inspired" mass unemployment as a worth goal;" "Rising unemployment and the recession have been the price that we have had to pay to get inflation down. That price is well worth paying." Norman Lamont, 1991Last edited by ahinton; 03-01-12, 13:03.
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Originally posted by Flosshilde View Post"Anyway, to return to the topic, the petition is about how MT's funeral should be funded and why - and it is a patently ridiculous idea because not only is MT still alive, no one involved in it has appeared to question in advance the extent to which her family and her Estate would expect to fund it and, furthermore, since the notion of a "state funeral" presumes state funding, the very premise of the petition is contradictory, since one cannot have a "state funeral" funded by private industry. The question of a state funeral for MT has been in the public domain for at least 3 years, as this quote shows - "Margaret Thatcher will have a £3million state funeral - the first Prime Minister since Churchill to be given this honour - according to plans backed by the Queen and Gordon Brown. Hundreds of you see this as an insult to struggling taxpayers..." (Daily Mirror, 16/7/08, http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-sto...5875-20645518/). The 'State' aspect of a state funeral has less to do with the source of funding than the fact that it is a recognition by 'the state', which clearly in this case means recognition by the Queen. The funding could still be private even if ceremony involved the use of the armed forces and the police.
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Pilchardman
Originally posted by ahinton View PostYes; cutting all manner of red tape
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Originally posted by Pilchardman View PostThis is another myth. "Rolling back the state" only applied to certain functions of the state. In fact, the state grew under Thatcher. It's just that the bias was in favour of the integrity of the financial system and the solvency of financial institutions over the well-being of the population.
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Pilchardman
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The difficulties that you put forward are inherent in any private involvement in public services, & are fundamental to objections to that involvement. Sponsorship (a slightly different thing) of public events is well established, and I believe that organisations like football clubs have to pay for police used for crowd control etc. during matches.
(reply to ahinton, #161)
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