The rain in Spain

[ahinton]

the Mornijng Star

Is that a Dutch newspaper?

and regurgitate it so mindlessly here so often, how many times do you have to be told that, despite the unwholesome actions of some financial institutions with regard to bonuses and speculation, it is not they who are responsible for the primary mess of debt that so many countries are in

May I at least try to speare you the experience of yet further such regurgitation? Your statement is misleading. The phenomenon of national indebtedness is such that there is hardly a country in the world capable of repaying its debts upon demand, but don't try to persuade me that this fact is all down to each country having supported extreme left-wing governments for decades! The blame does indeed lay with certain politicians, as you say, but it also lays not only with those "unwholesome actions of some financial institutions with regard to bonuses and speculation", as you also say, but also with hopelessly incompetent, grossly overpaid and at times corrupt financial services regulators, not to mention a tax inspecting and collecting organisation that's willing to let the big boys off payment of billions of pounds' worth of tax; the combination of all of these has inevitably been devastating.

The people responsible are the dishonest, mainly "socialist", politicians who have borrowed and borrowed and borrowed and spent and spent and spent on unsustainable projects and policies aimed primarily at bribing their electorates to keep them in power.

That the most recent "Labour" government in Britain over-borrowed for too long is undeniable, but the electorate threw them out more than 18 months ago. The current situation is having to be addressed by a government of somewhat different hue (though not all that different - don't forget Thatcher's avowed desire to pull not merely the Tory party but all parties to the right, with the result that the differences between them today are less than they've ever been and there's certainly very little that's fundamentally "socialist" about the present-day Labour party). That said, we now have small businesses feeling the pinch because of the fallout from the banking crisis that has resulted in some of those banks who'd been accused of undue speculative lending and other imprudent activities are now tightening their lending policies to the detriment of such businesses. To the antediluvian phrase "never a borrower or a lender be" I can only retort, "no, indeed - better to be dead". Almost no one can start a business of any size, purchase his/her own home or fund higher education without borrowing.

The sounds that we now hear so often are the sounds of chickens coming home to roost.

The sounds that I hear are rather more worrying than that!

With regard to the UK in particular, and despite the general disapproval of the aforementioned activities of some banks, we have to be thankful that we do have such a strong and important financial centre in the City, because, its agreed faults notwithstanding, it will contribute about 50 billion pounds to the Exchequer this year.

So far, yes, maybe - but for how much longer? If the euro collapses (which is not unlikely though by no means a certainty), the effect on the City and on the British economy in general will de devastating, even some among the less alarmist of economists are already predicting that the value of that economy will deplete rapidly by at least 25%. Like any other country, Britain cannot manage without borrowing (although, of course, such borrowing shouldn't get out of hand); it also cannot manage without trading with its EU partners and, were they to go under along with the common currency that the majority of them use, Britain would suffer untold damage.

While on borrowing, incidentally, I had cause a while ago to berate someone who was being very complacent about having no borrowings of any kind, having paid off his mortgage, his children's university debts and the rest. I reminded him that, although he may have no direct borrowings, he's mortgaged up to the hilt on indirect ones. When he asked me what I meant, I reminded him that his salary has been partly funded from his employer's borrowings for several years and that the state and other pensions that he was now drawing are likewise funded.

(Which is precisely why the French and the Germans - our most remorseless enemies still - want to destroy it).

You should be thorougly ashamed of yourself for writing such arrogantly nationalist rubbish; you almost make it sound as though you'd not be opposed to a third major war in Europe. I wouldn't give you more than a few seconds in the ring with Sir Winston Churchill were you to have been able to spout forth such small-minded belligerence in his presence! "The French and the Germans" - just two out of 27 EU nations in a Europe the majority of whose countries are still non-EU - "want to" do nothing of the kind although, whedther they like it or not, they'll have little option but to do so along with the other 15 Eurozone nations if their currency does indeed collapse.

[Serial_Apologist]

Notwithstanding the fact that you swallow wholesale the propaganda of Socialist Worker and/or the Mornijng Star, teamsaint, and regurgitate it so mindlessly here so often, how many times do you have to be told that, despite the unwholesome actions of some financial institutions with regard to bonuses and speculation, it is not they who are responsible for the primary mess of debt that so many countries are in.

The people responsible are the dishonest, mainly "socialist", politicians who have borrowed and borrowed and borrowed and spent and spent and spent on unsustainable projects and policies aimed primarily at bribing their electorates to keep them in power.



(Which is precisely why the French and the Germans - our most remorseless enemies still - want to destroy it).

Teamsaint and ahinton have said better than I could what I would have wanted to respond in kind to this unwarranted rant. I would just add that the Labour government, operating as it was under all the contradictions and unsustainability endemic to capitalism - propaganda on behalf of which you swallow wholesale (sic) and regurgitate mindlessly - found itself in no position other than to borrow in order to spend to redress the gross social iniquities that had been allowed to drift during 18 preceding years under Thatcher and Major.

[ahinton]

Teamsaint and ahinton have said better than I could what I would have wanted to respond in kind to this unwarranted rant. I would just add that the Labour government, operating as it was under all the contradictions and unsustainability endemic to capitalism - propaganda on behalf of which you swallow wholesale (sic) and regurgitate mindlessly - found itself in no position other than to borrow in order to spend to redress the gross social iniquities that had been allowed to drift during 18 preceding years under Thatcher and Major.

For a more pragmatic and enlightening view on capitalism good and bad, may I refer you and others to the recently published http://www.jesse4hereford.com/pdf/Th...Capitalism.pdf? It's not capitalism per se that's the enemy here, as readers will hopefully discover...

[Biffo]

ahinton: I don't know about the person you berated but my state pension has been funded by the considerable National Insurance contributions I have made over the years; for many many years I paid Employers and Employees NI out of my earnings. My private was pension was entirely funded by me (though with tax relief).

[Flosshilde]

That's so funny. They chose to settle there, live cheaply, and, they get their Winter Fuel Allowance don't they and laugh whilst baking and we freeze? Personally I'd chuck them them off on Gibraltar!

Are you sure this is the The Times and not The Mail?

No doubt if they are repatriated, homeless & without the bulk of their personal posessions, they will expect to jump any que for council or 'social' housing; or will they be accommodated in hostels along with the other economic immigrants so 'loved' by the tabloid press?

[Serial_Apologist]

For a more pragmatic and enlightening view on capitalism good and bad, may I refer you and others to the recently published http://www.jesse4hereford.com/pdf/Th...Capitalism.pdf? It's not capitalism per se that's the enemy here, as readers will hopefully discover...

With all due respect, Mr Norman's blog contains no more than the usual platitudes and generalisations which I am sure would not pass muster with you, if posted on this board.

Reading that was like grasping at fog. Aside from doubting his sincerity - (anyone can be sincere and a complete idiot) - he, like the many more of good will - ignores deep contradictions within the capitalist system that shapes it as it does, and us the way we are.

[Lateralthinking1]

Post 34 - Regrettably Biffo the first bit isn't so. Your pension is being paid by current employees. You paid for the pensions of your parents' generations. There has been a shift but not for the current elderly. Those in their 40s are not only paying for the pensions of those older in full but are now being asked to pay for a percentage of the pensions of those younger than them.

We are losing threefold - 1. Paying for the older and the younger at the same time. 2. Paying to some extent for the younger when the older did not pay for us. 3. Receiving less in due course from the younger than we currently give to the older.