France's finance minister François Baroin: 'It's better to be French than British'

[amateur51]

.... i fancy a eurovison masterchef instead of a song contest .... let's see who really cooks best eh? .... but my euro would be on the same ol same ol voting blocks

I find cookery on the telly only slightly more daft than fire-eating or sword-swallowing on the radio

Isn't a good deal of the pleasure of watching an expert cooking tied up with with smells and sounds and ultimately in texture and flavour, none of which can be gauged satisfactorily on the highest of HD telly?

[Nick Armstrong]

I find cookery on the telly only slightly more daft than fire-eating or sword-swallowing on the radio

Isn't a good deal of the pleasure of watching an expert cooking tied up with with smells and sounds and ultimately in texture and flavour, none of which can be gauged satisfactorily on the highest of HD telly?

There is an inexorable logic to what you say, Ams... it's a point I've often made, and yet... Masterchef is oddly compulsive, I find. It defies all reason...

[vinteuil]

Not 'having a go' at you, ahinton as it has become a very common expression, particularly on poncey restaurant and gastropub menus but where else would one fry anything other than in a pan?

sorry, ams - there IS a distinction between "pan fried" and "deep fried".

I think - those who live north of Watford deep fry - those of us living south of Watford ask our cooks to pan fry...

[Anna]

sorry, ams - there IS a distinction between "pan fried" and "deep fried".

I think - those who live north of Watford deep fry - those of us living south of Watford ask our cooks to pan fry...

And pan fried is totally different from shallow fried of course. Which is a completely different kettle of fish. I have been rivetted to this series of MasterChef ......

[amateur51]

sorry, ams - there IS a distinction between "pan fried" and "deep fried".

I think - those who live north of Watford deep fry - those of us living south of Watford ask our cooks to pan fry...

Agreed vints but I would say that the distinction is between 'fried' (implied pan) and 'deep fried' which is a different process

[handsomefortune]

fire-eating or sword-swallowing on the radio

i can think of plenty of radio presenters who'd sound much better doing either amateur51.

[teamsaint]

Hmmmm, the teaching of history must have changed a lot since my time, then. I gave it up after 'O' level, having been taught 'history' through primary school and I don't recall absorbing any of the lessons you refer to. Facts, facts, facts - it might have been rather dry and short on the whys and wherefores. But the 'Four Invasions' all had an importance, in varying degrees, for our history and culture. The industrial revolution did have its advantages for workers (where would we be now without it?), as well as the immediate hardships. I never remember the Crusades as being taught as the triumph of Christian spirituality (I have an abiding memory of Saladin presented as a 'good guy'), but the wars themselves had some importance to ordinary people, if not as much as the wars of the 20th century have done. I don't understand the final sentence: 'we teach ... we need controlling'? Who we?

I certainly don't remember being given the impression that people were bad, rulers were good; French bad, English good; Saracens bad, Christians good.I think the criticism of history teaching lies elsewhere (perhaps the chronological approach which customarily began with the Romans), but I think it has changed a lot since I was at school, I assume for the better.

Well I think you were taught very differently to most people then.

Most schools teach about the Roman invasion/empire, and in a way that puts it in a very positive light. That's not the way we would view it if it was a C20 regime.
Industrial revolution benefits for workers? Well, it really depends on what you think things were like beforehand, and whether you have some "truth" about that. In my opinion,and that of plenty of other people, the industrial revolution was used to tie a big chunk of the population to poorly paid, unhealthy work, and in poor quality living and working conditions.On the back of this, some rich industrialists and bankers lived very nicely.

Most history is taught in a way that suggests that people at the top are good, and the rest are irrelevant.(and that wars and conflict are inevitable).

I don't know why you can't understand my last sentence.Our history is taught "top down". The people at the top control the agenda.

[ahinton]

Not 'having a go' at you, ahinton as it has become a very common expression, particularly on poncey restaurant and gastropub menus but where else would one fry anything other than in a pan?

In a deep fryer, which is used for plenty of things besides the making of chips - tempura preparations, for just one example.

[ahinton]

.... i fancy a eurovison masterchef instead of a song contest .... let's see who really cooks best eh? .... but my euro would be on the same ol same ol voting blocks

Well, I suppose that' there's some argument for saying that "substitutes for singing don't get tougher than this" doesn't quite trip off the tongue too well - and I cannot somehow perceive Michel Roux Jr. being paraded as one of Britain's few 2-Michelin-starred singers for whom nothing but vocal perfection will do and great French classics of Piaf, Brel, Trenet, Bourvil et al are repertoire essentials. Mind you, the thought that the early stages of one of the more egregiously gross of Euromastervocalchef song entries might be interrupted by Gregg Wallace yelling "you have just ten seconds left" could make the whole thing rather more bearable that it would otherwise be...

[handsomefortune]

i don't know what french farmers/fisherman etc would think about the eu, but ....

[QUOTE=teamsaint;112793]

Industrial revolution benefits for workers? Well, it really depends on what you think things were like beforehand, and whether you have some "truth" about that. In my opinion,and that of plenty of other people, the industrial revolution was used to tie a big chunk of the population to poorly paid, unhealthy work, and in poor quality living and working conditions. On the back of this, some rich industrialists and bankers lived very nicely.

and for relatively conservative (small c) folk historians, who might well also include the eu in 'living very nicely' too!

nostalgia for a pre industrial age is very common place in the 20th c, and this view is well represented across the arts, a record of which creates a secondary history of sorts. however, mostly, this penchant is JUST nostalgia, and romanticism ... usually by (allegedly) 'hypocritical', well heeled, and self sufficient male artists/poets/performers ...arguably! perhaps this is what french frank is hinting at?

as for contemporary times, 'world routes' last sunday, featured a small, self sufficent community, living off natural resources. the hush and awe that accompanies such blissfully compact anecdotes of sustainable rural living, perhaps reflect more about urbanite response.... especially in the current harsh financial climate, which makes us feel abnormally dependent, and impotent in comparison. mentally, city people try to imagine living differently in response to the recession, for obvious reasons. whereas those who fish/farm/etc regularly fear the eu, sense their 'institutional dependency' longterm and more keenly, because the effects of eu rulings are experienced first hand? like many current issues, perhaps this doesn't necessarily have to automatically be interpreted as Conservatism though?

Most history is taught in a way that suggests that people at the top are good, and the rest are irrelevant.(and that wars and conflict are inevitable).

agreed, a certain amount of 'fettling' goes on definitely. i only have to watch adam curtis's docu about the german role in ww2; or listen to an ancient german friend (of my familys) anecdotes; or remember my own school history lessons about germany....to see the immense difference in accounts of the precise same period, and location.

I don't know why you can't understand my last sentence. Our history is taught "top down". The people at the top control the agenda.

i think aeolium's post #3 on the 'what is history today' thread, might support teamsaint's point about 'control'...or manipulation of the general dissemination of a given history, at any given point in time.

that gove currently hopes to change the emphasis of history lessons illustrates historys typical surceptibility to external forces, as well as a 'topdown' approach surely?

aeolium's points about the historian ian carr, suggest history is generally open to all sorts of 'cross contaminations', from the initial intent of historians- to faulty predictions as to future impact and developments; to 'the move away from patriarchal history', as planned by the current coalition.

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?3636-The-Essay-What-Is-History-Today

perhaps as with the subject of beauty, history is to an extent 'in the eye of the beholder', and not nearly as fixed, and factual as we might prefer, or originally imagine!

[Serial_Apologist]

[QUOTE=handsomefortune;113088]i don't know what french farmers/fisherman etc would think about the eu, but ....

Industrial revolution benefits for workers? Well, it really depends on what you think things were like beforehand, and whether you have some "truth" about that. In my opinion,and that of plenty of other people, the industrial revolution was used to tie a big chunk of the population to poorly paid, unhealthy work, and in poor quality living and working conditions. On the back of this, some rich industrialists and bankers lived very nicely.

and for relatively conservative (small c) folk historians, who might well also include the eu in 'living very nicely' too!

nostalgia for a pre industrial age is very common place in the 20th c, and this view is well represented across the arts, a record of which creates a secondary history of sorts. however, mostly, this penchant is JUST nostalgia, and romanticism ... usually by (allegedly) 'hypocritical', well heeled, and self sufficient male artists/poets/performers ...arguably! perhaps this is what french frank is hinting at?

as for contemporary times, 'world routes' last sunday, featured a small, self sufficent community, living off natural resources. the hush and awe that accompanies such blissfully compact anecdotes of sustainable rural living, perhaps reflect more about urbanite response.... especially in the current harsh financial climate, which makes us feel abnormally dependent, and impotent in comparison. mentally, city people try to imagine living differently in response to the recession, for obvious reasons. whereas those who fish/farm/etc regularly fear the eu, sense their 'institutional dependency' longterm and more keenly, because the effects of eu rulings are experienced first hand? like many current issues, perhaps this doesn't necessarily have to automatically be interpreted as Conservatism though?

Most history is taught in a way that suggests that people at the top are good, and the rest are irrelevant.(and that wars and conflict are inevitable).

agreed, a certain amount of 'fettling' goes on definitely. i only have to watch adam curtis's docu about the german role in ww2; or listen to an ancient german friend (of my familys) anecdotes; or remember my own school history lessons about germany....to see the immense difference in accounts of the precise same period, and location.

I don't know why you can't understand my last sentence. Our history is taught "top down". The people at the top control the agenda.

i think aeolium's post #3 on the 'what is history today' thread, might support teamsaint's point about 'control'...or manipulation of the general dissemination of a given history, at any given point in time.

that gove currently hopes to change the emphasis of history lessons illustrates historys typical surceptibility to external forces, as well as a 'topdown' approach surely?

aeolium's points about the historian ian carr, suggest history is generally open to all sorts of 'cross contaminations', from the initial intent of historians- to faulty predictions as to future impact and developments; to 'the move away from patriarchal history', as planned by the current coalition.

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?3636-The-Essay-What-Is-History-Today

perhaps as with the subject of beauty, history is to an extent 'in the eye of the beholder', and not nearly as fixed, and factual as we might prefer, or originally imagine!

In short, the "lessons of history" will always be loaded by those who disseminate them, whether it be the Stalinist version of the Russian Revolution, with Trotsky eliminated from photographs, or Mr Gove's and his chums.

[handsomefortune]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099266/

is a positive expression, (in part historical) about french land handed over to institutions, rather than being patroled by old army veterans attached to owners of stately homes. the autobiographical film (linked), directed by yves robert, was based on marcel pagnol's childhood.

doubtless. pagnol might say

The reason people find it so hard to be happy is that they always see the past better than it was, the present worse than it is, and the future less resolved than it will be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Pagnol

and might well scupper many a traditional folk singers' lyrics, whether french or british!

as for 'it's better to be french than british' ..... it might suggest francois baroin decided to be a bit careless, and that's about it. bearing in mind that historically, it might be the only sentence he's ever remembered for abroad!

certain tabloids will welcome the chance to be offended, and forget all about having dabbled in their own french bashing taunts. though imv i think it would be best if all countrys did eat a lot more cheese, and less meat, which goes down like a lead balloon in most eu countrys, and coincidentally also with british tabloids. as someone has already pointed out upthread, 'there's more that binds us, than our differences divide us', (or words to the effect).

[teamsaint]

lots of British modern folk music is very forward looking in its approach,(musical and political) and seeks to take what is good from the past, I suggest.

As for the benefits of the industrial revolution.......trading one kind of slavery (to land owned /stolen by others) for another (to the industrialists pay packet) is not necessarily a leap forward.

Some pretty bad stuff happened to an awful lot of workers in the IR.