Obama 'US has finest Military force'

[ahinton]

And Alistair Hinton- I'm often not sure whether you're being serious because you genuinely don't do humour, or whether being so deliberatly obtuse IS your humour. Of course I don't believe the French to be monkeys, and I'm perfectly aware that the only monkeys in France- except perhaps for the odd pet- are kept in zoos. Surely you didn't honestly think I was serious??

Of course I didn't! Surely you didn't honestly think that I was being serious, did you? Inc identally, is your observation that I "genuinely don't do humour" a statement in and of itself or a mere qualification of your uncertainty as to the reasons for my being serious?

And you really should try some Flower Marie, which despite the vaguely French sounding name, is as British as Edward Elgar.

OK, I'll do that. It sounds as though I might enjoy it, then, especially since Elgar, whilst obviously a British citizen, wrote much music that sounds quite remarkably non-English to me...

[greenilex]

I'm having trouble with "good" and "best" where armies are concerned. The best army has been stood down.

[Mr Pee]

Of course I didn't! Surely you didn't honestly think that I was being serious, did you? Inc identally, is your observation that I "genuinely don't do humour" a statement in and of itself or a mere qualification of your uncertainty as to the reasons for my being serious?

I don't know....are you being serious now?

OK, I'll do that. It sounds as though I might enjoy it, then, especially since Elgar, whilst obviously a British citizen, wrote much music that sounds quite remarkably non-English to me...

I'm sure you'll enjoy it. I'm going to order some myself. Although I've always thought Elgar sounds English, whatever sounding English means. A long as it doesn't sound like that wishy-washy impressionistic gloop that the Frenchies compose. And don't get me started on Berlioz.....

[amateur51]

I bought some of the Coop's Truly Irresistible Epoisses this week, marked down to £1.65 for a half (too resistible for tastes round this way) - but I had to eat it with a spoon

Wow! Major bargain, french frank!

I don't have a Co-op close by but I'll do a recce one day to see if they stock it in NW2. It's not an every-day cheese I grant you but stunning every now & then.

[ahinton]

I don't know....are you being serious now?

As Elliott Carter said in an interview shortly before his centenary whaat now seems like ages ago when asked the sadly inevitable question as to the secret of his unprecedented creative longevity, "it's a secret!"...

I'm sure you'll enjoy it. I'm going to order some myself. Although I've always thought Elgar sounds English, whatever sounding English means. A long as it doesn't sound like that wishy-washy impressionistic gloop that the Frenchies compose. And don't get me started on Berlioz.....

"Whatever sounding English means" - ah, how frightfully Prince Charlesesque! That said, the likelihood that what some people might think "sounding English" to mean would involve something to do with English folk music brings to mind the (English) composer David Matthews' participation in a discussion in a Presteigne (that's almost in England) Festival a few years back when he pointed out that, when taken to task for not embracing folk music in his work, Elgar retortedthat he was one of the folk and he wrote music, therefore he wrote folk music. Anyway, for an example, the glorious Alassio, a portrayal of an area of southern Italy, sounds to me almost as though Richard Strauss had taken it upon himself to write a piece of "English music" but cover it up in a cloak of Mediterranean inspiration (and we know how much Strauss admired Elgar's work) - and, for another, Falstaff (surely one of Elgar's greatest works?) strikes me as "English only to the extent of what it's "about" rather than what it sounds like.

Now for that "wishy-washy impressionistic gloop that the Frenchies compose", by which I presume you to refer to such things as the symphonies of Magnard and Roussel, d'Indy's quartets and violin sonata, Boulez's Second Sonata for piano, Debussy's piano studies and last three sonatas and Schmitt's Le Tragédie de Salome and Piano Quintet; yes, of course you're attempting another joke - indeed, how could you possibly be doing otherwise?(!)...

And, while we're about it, let us bury the hatchet of these recent France v. England barbs by noting that a distinguished English musicologist has recently discovered that, in his early forties, Elgar purchased the very bicycle portrayed in your avatar and in that bronze on the north face of my local cathedral from the Estate of his then recently deceased near-contemporary Ernest Chausson and it is now thought that, given the fact of Chausson having met his death while riding it, the French composer's once unique brand of melancholy somehow entered Elgar's creative spirit...

[Mr Pee]

And, while we're about it, let us bury the hatchet of these recent France v. England barbs by noting that a distinguished English musicologist has recently discovered that, in his early forties, Elgar purchased the very bicycle portrayed in your avatar and in that bronze on the north face of my local cathedral from the Estate of his then recently deceased near-contemporary Ernest Chausson and it is now thought that, given the fact of Chausson having met his death while riding it, the French composer's once unique brand of melancholy somehow entered Elgar's creative spirit...

Elgar rode a French bicyclette
???



I think I may need to change my avatar.......

[Pabmusic]

... I've always thought Elgar sounds English, whatever sounding English means. A long as it doesn't sound like that wishy-washy impressionistic gloop that the Frenchies compose. And don't get me started on Berlioz.....

A very strong influence on Elgar was that of the French romantics, Delibes, Bizet, Saint-Saens, Massenet et al. It's not usually acknowledged by those who assume that Wagner and Brahms are the major influences, but Elgar's musical training was in orchestras that played much more Delibes (and Mendelssohn, Dvorak and Schumann) than Wagner or Brahms. He was on friendly terms with Saint-Saens and regarded Faure as "the most perfect kind of French gentleman". (Faure was also present at the premieres of several Elgar works, including Gerontius and the First Symphony.) Parts of Caractacus sound to me like Massenet opera, and it's difficult to imagine the miniatures (Wand of Youth, etc) would be as they are without Delibes (try the Madrigal from Le Roi s'Amuse, for instance).

Of course Wagner, Brahms and Strauss were important, but they were later influences, not fundamental ones. The remarkable thing is how well Elgar made all this his own.

[ahinton]

A very strong influence on Elgar was that of the French romantics, Delibes, Bizet, Saint-Saens, Massenet et al. It's not usually acknowledged by those who assume that Wagner and Brahms are the major influences, but Elgar's musical training was in orchestras that played much more Delibes (and Mendelssohn, Dvorak and Schumann) than Wagner or Brahms. He was on friendly terms with Saint-Saens and regarded Faure as "the most perfect kind of French gentleman". (Faure was also present at the premieres of several Elgar works, including Gerontius and the First Symphony.) Parts of Caractacus sound to me like Massenet opera, and it's difficult to imagine the miniatures (Wand of Youth, etc) would be as they are without Delibes (try the Madrigal from Le Roi s'Amuse, for instance).

Of course Wagner, Brahms and Strauss were important, but they were later influences, not fundamental ones. The remarkable thing is how well Elgar made all this his own.

Indeed - but you didn't mention Schumann, who in some ways was an even more potent influence on Elgar than was Brahms.

Mr Pee - does your change of avatar (if for the time being rather than as a mere one-off) mean that Hereford Cathedral will be denied future royalties?

[Pabmusic]

...you didn't mention Schumann, who in some ways was an even more potent influence on Elgar than was Brahms.

Actually, there's an oblique reference, but I agree with your point wholeheartedly. Apart from the obvious lift from Brahms 3 in the last movement of the First Symphony, I don't feel that Brahms figures all that much. Now, he knew Schumann's music well from 1883 - the beginning of his composing career - and called him "my ideal!". I think the Overture, Scherzo & Finale has a lot of 'Elgar' sound in it.

Also, don't forget Dvorak. Elgar was bowled over by his music (especially the orchestration) when he first encountered it in (?) 1884, at Worcester, under Dvorak's conducting. There's a passage towards the end of the 8th symphony that seems pure Elgar to me.

[ahinton]

So we start out with Obama and his country's military forces and, before we even reach 40 posts, we're on Elgar, whose view on such matters is probably best summed up by the sheer madness that he perceived in Germany in the early 1930s shortly before his death. Ah - the wonders of internet fora!...

[BBMmk2]

Is it possible to get back on topic? I started this thread with the utmost of serious intention about the comment that Mr Obama made to the American forces in Iraq, when they handed over the country back to the Iraqis. With a sweeping statment like that, its rather worrying how a president or any politician can make a statement like this?

[french frank]

Is it possible to get back on topic? I started this thread with the utmost of serious intention about the comment that Mr Obama made to the American forces in Iraq, when they handed over the country back to the Iraqis. With a sweeping statment like that, its rather worrying how a president or any politician can make a statement like this?

I'm not sure how worrying it is. It's the politicians' job to be cheerleaders for the nation, and make citizens feel good about their country ("The war was justified and was a success. It really, really was. Really.") I don't think, on this occasion, it was intended as a message to the rest of the world.

[ahinton]

I'm not sure how worrying it is. It's the politicians' job to be cheerleaders for the nation, and make citizens feel good about their country ("The war was justified and was a success. It really, really was. Really.") I don't think, on this occasion, it was intended as a message to the rest of the world.

But he must have known that it would immediately become one, like it or not.

[vinteuil]

Is it possible to get back on topic? I started this thread with the utmost of serious intention about the comment that Mr Obama made to the American forces in Iraq, when they handed over the country back to the Iraqis. With a sweeping statment like that, its rather worrying how a president or any politician can make a statement like this?

... but, brassbandmaestro - Obama had the most difficult and delicate speech to make to his soldiers. He had previously (viz before being President) said - quite rightly - that the adventure in Iraq was "a dumb war" - but he can hardly now say, at the end of the engagement, to his armies who have lost over four and a half thousand of their lives - that their efforts and sacrifices were in vain - so he has to find a form of words which will make them feel good about themselves - without 'celebrating' the war itself. I think he fulfilled this delicate task very well.

[ahinton]

... but, brassbandmaestro - Obama had the most difficult and delicate speech to make to his soldiers. He had previously (viz before being President) said - quite rightly - that the adventure in Iraq was "a dumb war" - but he can hardly now say, at the end of the engagement, to his armies who have lost over four and a half thousand of their lives - that their efforts and sacrifices were in vain - so he has to find a form of words which will make them feel good about themselves - without 'celebrating' the war itself. I think he fulfilled this delicate task very well.

I take your point but I still disagree that he did it well, although that's less of a criticism of the way he did it than an observation that there was, quite simply, never going to be a "right" way for any president to do it.