Trial By You Tube

[Richard Tarleton]

I find the story, far from being heartwarming, deeply disquieting. What the ticket collector/conductor surely should have done was to leave the alleged fare-dodger alone as soon as he started swearing, allowed the train to proceed and arranged for the police to meet the train at the next stop. Then this student's story that he had given up the return half of his ticket by mistake on his outward journey could have been assessed by the police and, if necessary, in a court of law. I rather hope that assault charges will be brought against the gung-ho vigilante in this case.

(in the concert interval )
Raushwerk, there were various honourable courses of action open to the "student", depending on when he discovered his mistake, assuming his story to be genuine, which I'm sure I don't need to spell out. These did not include holding up a trainful of passengers or swearing at the conductor. I rather hope the train company pursues him for attempting to travel without a ticket, and for abusing a member of its staff.

[ahinton]

I can confirm that fare dodgers halt buses here several times each week. The dodger refuses to get off. The driver under instruction switches off the engine. Nothing happens until the next bus arrives, then everyone other than the dodger piles onto that one. If they don't leave the bus, they can be forcibly removed. I've been through this many times myself.

This is no way to run a transport system, nor is a bus or train the ideal venue in which to dance with the nuances of the law. In a sense, it is an open invitation for cameras to click and people then to become famous for 15 minutes. It concerns me that there will inevitably be a highly selective trial by internet audience. For example, one wonders if those who condemn the big fella here might have felt indifferent, or even cheered, had he removed a woman making racist comments.

These things are never easy - one persons rights versus those of others; the issue of privacy; the question of who has powers under the law; the assessment of appropriate force; the extent to which an individual's political outlook plays a part; the potential boomeranging of law-breaking. It is a minefield and one that is made more difficult to negotiate with the photography. We've seen this recently. That is why I believe the law needs to tighten. I think it would mean less time being wasted, not more.

But how would or could you "tighten" the law? People can photograph others in public places or elsewhere without being seen to do so; some might like to make a big fuss and be noticed for doing it, but others simply do what pirates have been doing in concert venues for years - record what they want under their overcoats or some other suitable cover and then do with the results just what they want to do. It is simply not feasible to create laws designed to prevent people from taking photographs, videos or audio recordings in public or other places and expect those laws to be taken seriously, let alone be capable of working successfully in practice in a court of law.

[Vile Consort]

There is a contrary libertarian argument, which is that we don't want to become the sort of state where officials go around confiscating peoples' cameras for photographing what is going on in a public place. We used to feel very superior to places where you could be thrown into prison for taking photographs of trains or ships. A friend of mine had a very frightening experience after being apprehended taking a photograph from a train in the former German Democratic Republic.

Unfortunately, this country is heading in that direction, and what Lat proposed would arguably help it along that authoritarian route.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJH9F7Hcluo#! (the first minute consists of captions, the rest is more interesting)

As the law stands, anything that you do in a public place is already public property, and taking photographs of it doesn't make it any more public.

[ahinton]

There is a contrary libertarian argument, which is that we don't want to become the sort of state where officials go around confiscating peoples' cameras for photographing what is going on in a public place. We used to feel very superior to places where you could be thrown into prison for taking photographs of trains or ships. A friend of mine had a very frightening experience after being apprehended taking a photograph from a train in the former German Democratic Republic.

I heard at first hand of an amusing version of such an experience many years ago. I was staying in a hotel in Kirkenes in the extreme north east of Norway, not far from Grense Jakobselv and quite close to the border with the then Soviet Union. Even in so remote a place, there was a character whom I can only describe as a typical Texan tourist, with all the latest camera equipment and a voice to match. Over dinner one evening he recounted his experience travelling up to Grense Jakobselv, a route where the last bit rund almost along the edge of that border. At one point, he noticed a small gateway with a notice on the gate in Norwegian which, translated into English, ran "Soviet Union: Keep Out", which I had earlier seen myself and thought somewhat quaint given the comparatively minuscule size of Norway and the immensity of the Soviet Union. Anyway, between there and the little town on the coast there was at least one notice warning people not to take photographs across the narrow stretch of water the other side of which was that massive country, but our intrepid Texan remained undeterred, since there was no sign of anyone in the vicinity in that somewhat bleak and remote place, so out came all his fancy kit and snap away he did - until someone jumped out of the bushes, frogmarched him across to a small boat and thence to the other side. "They put me in a small shed and confiscated all my camera equipment", he said "and they told me that they'd be back shortly. More than an hour later, they came back and returned my camera and ordered me to leave, but before I was escorted back to the safety of Norway, they presented me with all the developed photos that I'd taken and told me not to do that ever again! So I came back here. It's great, isn't it? You have to wait quite a while, but you get all your photos developed for free! They're OK, those Ruskies!".

[Norfolk Born]

....there were various honourable courses of action open to the "student", depending on when he discovered his mistake, assuming his story to be genuine, which I'm sure I don't need to spell out. These did not include holding up a trainful of passengers or swearing at the conductor. I rather hope the train company pursues him for attempting to travel without a ticket, and for abusing a member of its staff.

To paraphrase those wonderful sketches on 'Dead Ringers' where Alan Bennett and Dame Thora Hird discuss topical issues over Earl Grey and Gypsy Creams (feel free to provide your own Leeds accent): 'We finally came up with a perfectly fair and logical solution to the problem ...but they won't adopt it, will they'?