Did Davey do the right thing?

[french frank]

bearing in mind we are the only country stupid enough to pay any fines imposed by Brussels

Is there any evidence that this is so?

[eighthobstruction]

It is the computer share-trading algar-rhythms of Canary Wharf/City that need regulating....in fact 'governing' [in the engine -governing sense]....surely it is these extremely high byte transactions computed high speed without human intuition or intervention, that lead to many of the Markets dizzy fluctuations....and general losses of share and Capital value....

[Lateralthinking1]

ff - I don't know. Probably not.

I think aeolium's point below is a good one.

In some ways when you consider all the years of extensive infrastructure, some of the export percentages are staggeringly low. I'm learning here. Denmark 1%, Poland 1.5%, Sweden 2%, Spain 3.3%, Italy 3.5%.

The best performers are Germany 11.2%, Netherlands 7.8%, France 7.8%, Ireland 5.8%, Belgium 5.4%. These are all natural places for our exports anyway, being our immediate neighbours or thereabouts.

I reckon 10 out of the Top 25 countries to which we export are EU which means that 16 are not in the Top 25. Very disappointing.

I agree with the Greens that we need to renegotiate the terms of membership - but not if at all possible leave it.

[MrGongGong]

It is the computer share-trading algar-rhythms of Canary Wharf/City that need regulating....in fact 'governing' [in the engine -governing sense]....surely it is these extremely high byte transactions computed high speed without human intuition or intervention, that lead to many of the Markets dizzy fluctuations....and general losses of share and Capital value....

Actually the inability of politicians and others to understand the difference between Arithmetic and Maths is what is largely at fault in this area ! simple minded accountants who really don't understand maths but can add up are largely to blame (not that I understand complex mathematics but I bet Xenakis would know what to do )

[eighthobstruction]

Yep probably have 10 step plan too....

....SEEMS extra-ordinary that the Greek Euro is still worth £0.85....or £0. 17s 03p if certain Tories had their way....

[scottycelt]

I once read that some fines by the EU are sometimes deducted from any forthcoming grants, etc, to the offending country, but I have absolutely no hard evidence that this is the case.

However, the utter absurdity of some of these 'horror stories' is amply demonstrated by the case highlighted in the following link to .. yes, you've guessed it, The Daily Mail.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2012195/Northampton-University-fined-56k-displaying-EU-flag.html

I don't know whether this particular horror story is virtually unique in being true, but, if it is, funny how the Tory MP in the report didn't say anything about the University paying any money back to the EU which actually funded its brand new facilities? Accepting the money and then telling the donor to basically get knotted?

What a quite unbelievable cheek!

[johnb]

Well this from 1999 would make for an interesting read - http://www.globalbritain.org/BOO/HowDependant.htm

Certainly, in 2000, the biggest growth was outside the EU - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/4...bn-record.html

And here from a more recent Civitas article, the message that it is all about statistical interpretation:

Sixty Per Cent of Our Economy? The second misconception is that 60% of our economy depends on the EU, whereas the true figure is more like ten per cent. Exports of goods and services only account for 21% of ‘final demand’. If exports of goods and services to the EU account for 48% of total exports, then ten per cent of GDP is currently the result of exports of goods and services to other EU members. In other words, about 79% of our economy is the result of domestic activity, involving buying from and selling to each other, and exports of goods and services to the rest of the world account for another 11%.

http://www.civitas.org.uk/pubs/EUFactsheet.php

Lat, with the best will in the world you are conflating two separate (though related) things:

1) the percentage of the total UK trading activity (including domestic activity) that takes place with Europe (which is where your 10% comes from) and

2) the percentage of our trade exports that goes to the EU, which is around 54%. Bear in mind that your original wording was "the percentage of our exports that go to the EU is around 10% in real terms" - which is factually incorrect.

Elsewhere, and more on the lines of your figure, it is reported that exports currently are 13.0% to the US. Then the following make for another 22% - China, India, Canada, Hong Kong, UAE, Russia, Japan, Australia, Turkey, Singapore, South Africa, Switzerland, Norway, Saudi Arabia. The scope is impressive and in many there are rising trends.

Now you have changed your the basis of your argument back to percentages of export trade again!!!

[MrGongGong]

Expressing things as % is a classic way of confusing people

for example

if this year we sold 1 widget
and next we sold 2

that's an increase of 100%
brilliant you might think

its always the same with crime statistics ........... (98% of statistics are made up anyway !)

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

well the bit of the Hutton piece that i especially appreciate is his characterisation of Dave .. splendid i feel

[Lateralthinking1]

QUOTE=johnb "the percentage of our exports that go to the EU is around 10% in real terms" - which is factually incorrect.

Yes, johnb, thank you for that clarification and I accept that my statement there was incorrect.

[Biffo]

Here is an illuminating article from Gavin Hewitt on the subject: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16136004

It seems to have drawn generally positive response.

[vinteuil]

Here is an illuminating article from Gavin Hewitt on the subject: .

I liked Robt: Peston's reporting on the doubts that business and the city have of the wisdom of Cameron's "veto" -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16133286

[Lateralthinking1]

Yes, Biffo, I think that Hewitt article is very good. The only thing I would say against it slightly is the idea that "Britain only ever wanted a single market", ie not fiscal union and federalism. Because there are other things:

- I think that many would support coordinated approaches on environmental issues.

- Some would like to see a greater tendency towards identifying key areas of consensus on foreign affairs.

- Then while the human rights legislation is really not doing what it should do, Europe must stand together for humanity.

- And there are arguments in favour of sharing expertise in research and development.

None of these things need to be systemically rigid to be managed effectively. All are important.

[Biffo]

vinteuil: Also an interesting article. I have also noticed that Vince Cable, who in the past has sometimes seemed to be the Lib Dem Cabinet Minister most at odds with his Tory colleagues, has been the most muted in his criticism.

[Serial_Apologist]

vinteuil: Also an interesting article. I have also noticed that Vince Cable, who in the past has sometimes seemed to be the Lib Dem Cabinet Minister most at odds with his Tory colleagues, has been the most muted in his criticism.

He has a commandingly, disarmingly "con-vinc-ing" way of underpresenting truths.