Did Davey do the right thing?

[Serial_Apologist]

I think Jerry Jones' point is that campaigners for a "Robin Hood Tax" present it as something which will raise significant revenue. Not as a tax which will de-incentivise speculation. His argument is that the former won't happen, so the premise is false. In other words, it isn't the solution to revenue 'shortfall' campaigners claim.

I see, , rather as in taxing polluters who then don't pollute.

[scottycelt]

I thought this thread was about whether Davey did the right thing or not ...

It has already been pointed out that Cameron had no alternative to apply the veto because (deliberately or otherwise) he put himself and the country in that position ... even his Coalition deputy thinks that. No point in blaming Merkel & Sarkozy ...

In a sense Cameron ended up doing the only thing logically possible, because every other EU leader out of the 27 present simply chose to ignore him due to his perceived arrogance and unwillingness to join in proper discussions with the rest of the club.

Those who scorn their neighbours can expect the same treatment in return.

No real surprise there.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

...because every other EU leader out of the 27 present simply chose to ignore him due to his perceived arrogance and unwillingness to join in proper discussions with the rest of the club.

"perceived" ?????

[MrGongGong]

"perceived" ?????

Quite

[scottycelt]

I was only trying to be unnaturally kind ...

[Petrushka]

There are several reports - here's one - http://www.moneynews.com/StreetTalk/...0/04/id/413225 that Germany is reprinting millions of Deutschmarks in the event of the Euro's collapse which in my view is drawing ever nearer.

As for whether Cameron did the right thing or not internet forums are awash with every possible shade of opinion so who knows?

[Lateralthinking1]

Owen Jones writes:

as Paul Mason has written, "by enshrining in national and international law the need for balanced budgets and near-zero structural deficits, the eurozone has outlawed expansionary fiscal policy" .... Left-wing governments of all hues will, in effect, be banned by this treaty. If the French or the German left returns to power in the near future (and both are in a good position to do so), it will be illegal for them to respond to the global economic catastrophe with anything but austerity. An economic stimulus is forbidden – because the treaty has buried Keynesianism.

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/th...y-cameron-stop

That is precisely what I've been saying since this happened. Perhaps someone nicked it. There was a time when it was said that Conservative voters wouldn't admit to pollsters that they would be voting Tory. I get the strong feeling from some of the comments I read that there are now Tory voters who want to leave the EU but would rather give the impression that they are more like Cameron. You know, things have to be done. We didn't have any choice. Pragmatism rather than dogmatism.

Well, I see through it. Here they go telling us that it is those on the left who are not understanding that the Merkozy plan plays to the neocons. Well, I am to the left and I do see it. I've said it umpteen times but this has been conveniently selected out. Quelle surprise. What we are not being told by them is that while there is still democratic scope to bring to Government anyone here - in theory from the SWP to the BNP via the Greens - the UK Tories are themselves neocon economically. In that respect, then, same difference. Just like France as it were, headed as it is by Margaret Thatcher loving Sarkozy.

The right wing Tories are also conveniently choosing to ignore the possible impacts on the Union with this move. As I say, on balance, I probably agree with what we did, if not the absence of diplomacy, but these people are so blinkered. It is like being so detemined to get out of town that they are being recklessly blase about the very foundations of our house. Let me tell you. The cracks are widening. If this is a victory for UKIP, it is pyrrhic. There won't be a UK for the IP soon because of these changes.

And on the left, there are also blinkered stances. It is all very well to think it must all be ring a ring a roses with our friends abroad to ensure that we are nice and to prevent another European war. I like the sentiment, genuinely. But regrettably, they have changed. They are booting the democracy of nations into a bin. Forget your beloved Keynesian approaches. Not only aren't they interested but they want them banned from Gdansk to Bari. They could have been banned here too last Friday but were not.

[John Skelton]

I thought this thread was about whether Davey did the right thing or not ...

It has already been pointed out that Cameron had no alternative to apply the veto because (deliberately or otherwise) he put himself and the country in that position ... even his Coalition deputy thinks that. No point in blaming Merkel & Sarkozy ...

In a sense Cameron ended up doing the only thing logically possible, because every other EU leader out of the 27 present simply chose to ignore him due to his perceived arrogance and unwillingness to join in proper discussions with the rest of the club.

Those who scorn their neighbours can expect the same treatment in return.

No real surprise there.

The development of the thread isn't really off-topic, surely? It seems rather narrow to insist on the exclusion of all content from the conversation .

"The main elements of the fiscal compact include a requirement for national budgets to be in balance or in surplus (the structural deficit should not exceed 0.5% of nominal GDP) and a requirement to incorporate this rule into the member states' national legal systems (at constitutional or equivalent level)" and the effective legalistic exclusion of any economics other than those of hardline neoliberal conservatism may sit comfortably with your politics, but I can't see that they do with other contributors here who still seem serenely uninterested in anything other than the awfulness of David Cameron. Eine Alpensinfonie was, if I remember rightly, recently demonstrating against exactly the kinds of austerity measures that the fiscal compact will make a matter of legally enforced necessity (though the details of how that's to be approved at national level seem unclear like so much else to do with the summit).

There is of course yet another irony in mainstream leftists appearing to support something they oppose and Cameron for quite adventitious reasons opposing what he supports.

[scottycelt]

The development of the thread isn't really off-topic, surely? It seems rather narrow to insist on the exclusion of all content from the conversation

Yes, of course, you are right ... I've never been one to complain about that.

My point really is that people look at such things in different ways and with different priorities.

I have never hidden my own and, to be fair, neither have you.

The current problem seems to be that, apart from Germany which doesn't want to spend anyway, no Government has any money to use to boost the national economy. Austerity also means different things to different countries. We talk about austerity here but (so far, fortunately for us) it bears little resemblance to that which will be imposed in, say, Greece.

It's a right old mess, and what is likely to get the world, never mind Europe, out of it, I haven't the foggiest idea.

Whether our cherished desire is an United States of Europe, or the abolition of global capitalism, let's just hope somebody comes up with some sort of credible 'solution', however imperfect, very, very soon indeed.

[Mr Pee]

Britain may well be left behind by the rest of Europe now. But the analogy that comes to mind is that of a passenger being left behind by the Titanic.......

[MrGongGong]

Britain may well be left behind by the rest of Europe now. But the analogy that comes to mind is that of a passenger being left behind by the Titanic.......

Sitting on a suitcase in the freezing Atlantic ?

[scottycelt]

I understand some Euro-sceptic Tory MP was rabbiting on about Neville Chamberlain before the summit ...

Well, one of them at least has now progressed from the 19th to the 20th Century ...

[ahinton]

Britain may well be left behind by the rest of Europe now. But the analogy that comes to mind is that of a passenger being left behind by the Titanic.......

The analogy that comes to your mind, perhaps; the fundamental difference is that, when the Titanic sank, the only people directly affected by that tragedy were those who lost their lives, their families and friends and the shipbuilders involved (that's thousands of people, admittedly) whereas if and when the euro collapses, irrespective of what Dave or anyone else did or didn't say or sign up to earlier this week, Britain will suffer noticeably in any case (that's tens of millions of people in Britain, not all of them British either). That said, if Britain continues to alienate most of the rest of the EU (which admittedly is not the rest of Europe by any means), the consequences for the country can only be negative, regardless of what may or may not happen to the euro in the coming months and years.

[Lateralthinking1]

One

I am coming to the conclusion that the collapse of the Euro won't affect me any more than what has happened already. I don't have a company. I don't have a private pension. I don't expect to be able to get a job again. The services destroyed by our Governments don't benefit me a great deal. If some private companies suffer, it might even halt the privatization of health.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2011/nov/07/economy-euro

I've been doing a little research. People keep mentioning Switzerland but it really isn't a good example of finding something positive outside the Eurozone. This is because its currency is overvalued and so prices are sky high. People just hop over the border to German shops. By contrast, we have an undervalued currency and water around our island. This should help us. Furthermore, 50% of the Swiss economy relies on exports mainly to Europe. Our economy is more diverse and the percentage of our exports that go to the EU is around 10% in real terms, far less than one might imagine. Good - if sad. It's every man for himself now apparently.

So, yes, after being staunchly in favour, I think I have had enough of the EU for now. Next step, I will try with my vote to help to boot the Tories and the so-called Lib Dems out. Green even if they are pro-Europe themselves. They are not for this Europe.

Twenty-six

If the debts in Greece and Italy get worse, is there anything in EU law to stop millions crossing borders to settle in Germany and France? I doubt it. Movement is encouraged although I suspect that when push comes to shove it wouldn't be so welcome. So that very notion should surely be enough to rein in the jackboot mentality of threatening to apply penalties to the weaker countries. Such undemocratic positions from Merkozy Inc are deeply unpleasant - in terms of respect for self-determination they are in the Alqaedazone even if they do stand more for humanity - but actually they could just be another toothless tiger.

For democracy must have its way. It is an outrage to have advanced nations governed by unelected bureaucrats. Everyone in Britain should be contacting Amnesty and telling them to sort it out. In the absence of that basic human response, I now see that riots are not the only answer. There is a lot to be said for mass migration into the lands of those who overstep the mark. Let that dialogue commence among citizens of Europe so these bloats are forced to review their strategy and then change it radically.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Will Hutton on very fine form for a change .... Dave has clearly got his goat .... and now for a piece on Merkozy's idiocy and we will be getting somewhere ....

and this on hedge fund donations though it speaks more to the 50p tax rate than the EU i think