Did Davey do the right thing?

[ahinton]

Michael Howard for example *shudder*

Oh, I think that it's rather late for Michael "prison WORKS!" Howard, don't you?

But if anyone is suggesing Michael Palin for PM, what about Joanna Lumley?

[Lateralthinking1]

I think this from the Guardian tonight really confirms everything I was saying about Cameron and diplomacy. It also shows in Clegg a personality change in 24 hours following what appeared to the world to be "blandly in agreement with Cameron" TV interviews:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/dec/10/nick-clegg-david-cameron-europe-veto

This then is the proof of the pudding with these two. We always knew that they lacked depth in political theory. They were not party players. Opportunists yes. Coldness and brutality certainly. But at least they could say that they were managers.

Not any longer. Today each has discovered that individuals are accountable to others. Those pesky Europeans have had the temerity to rejuvenate silenced parts of their parties and, surprise surprise, as some connection is required, each feels isolated. Bludgeon is not enough. The importance of Ashdown to Clegg has been the difference between him ever having become leader of the Lib Dems and being on the sidelines. Now even Paddy has had enough for Nick hasn't been wearing his trousers.

And as people as diverse as David Owen and Shirley Williams unite - ha, there has to be a first time for everything - this could be great news for those of us who feel that there were few, if any, merits in either outcome on Europe. For here come the Lib Dems finally, finally, finally, moving to support the CPRE and the National Trust in their opposition to the destructive scrapping of our planning laws. Joyous. Thank the Lord for Sarkozy's bloody-minded arrogance. Vive La France. We still, just, have our countryside!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/lib-dems-send-clegg-back-to-drawing-board-on-planning-law-6272823.html

[John Skelton]

One source said Clegg "couldn't believe it" when he was woken at 4am in his flat in Sheffield to be told that talks on how to save the euro at the Brussels summit had "spectacularly unravelled".

It doesn't strike the "source" that the Deputy Prime Minister slumbering (love the flat in Sheffield touch!) while the Prime Minister is doing serious Prime Minister stuff and talks on saving the euro are 'spectacularly unravelling' doesn't exactly suggest the DPM is in the 'loop'? Or that he has his eye on the ball, like? Or that it presents rather a comic image? The Next Day: "You did WHAT???!!!.

Lord Oakeshot: "Many of us were shocked and stunned on Friday. But we are now finding our voice." Grrrrrrrrrrr. Tiger.

[Mr Pee]

Pythagorean theorem: 24 words

Lord’s prayer: 66 words

Archimedes’ Principle: 67 words

Ten Commandments: 179 words

Gettysburg address: 286 words

US Declaration of Independence: 1,300 words

US Constitution with all 27 Amendments: 7,818 words

EU regulations on the sale of cabbage: 26,911 words

[Lateralthinking1]

Some of us are awake at 4am every morning sorting it all out and we're not even elected.

I keep hearing that this is good news for SNP. Sorry but I don't think so. Scotland can't become independent without European subsidies. It would be foolish to join the Euro. That leaves it now in what is the second speed EU with England etc unless it seeks to be where Cameron could have been on Friday. But that then would mean a three speed EU. Fast - Proper Europe. Medium - Scotland. Slow - England etc. Does anyone seriously believe that Europe will accommodate these British whims? I don't.

Scotland will get independence though. Just the message at an election of Scotland wishing to become more fully integrated within the EU under independence should see SNP taking virtually every constituency there. A referendum will follow. It will be won. Only afterwards will reality dawn. Scotland will be spurned by Europe as soon as it declares that it won't join Euro. It will be told in no uncertain terms it's in a group of two with England, like it or lump it. And it will suffer the economic consequences until SNP is removed from what for some years will be a one party dictatorship. It could take ten to turn it around to a competitive democracy.

The next step is that the new "Always Conservative" England may leave the EU having lost the Union. Worse, the rancour within that governing party will render it dysfunctional. Pro-EU Tories will blame the anti-EU ones for creating the conditions that enabled Scotland to get its independence. It is even possible that the former will start a break away party and become the official Opposition. So Mr Voter in England, where do you place your X? Anti-EU or Pro-EU Conservative? That's your so-called choice.

Smashing. The perfect recipe for the island sinking into the sea while Europe floats about baling out its leaky boat. Time for the sensible to leave for New Zealand. Some say that's where Gus O'Donnell is heading. He should know. He's been the Chief Administrator overseeing this foolhardy nonsense for years, one big ego at the service of himself and a few others but nobody else.

[ahinton]

Some of us are awake at 4am every morning sorting it all out and we're not even elected.

I keep hearing that this is good news for SNP. Sorry but I don't think so. Scotland can't become independent without European subsidies. It would be foolish to join the Euro. That leaves it now in what is the second speed EU with England etc unless it seeks to be where Cameron could have been on Friday. But that then would mean a three speed EU. Fast - Proper Europe. Medium - Scotland. Slow - England etc. Does anyone seriously believe that Europe will accommodate these British whims? I don't.

Scotland will get independence though. Just the message at an election of Scotland wishing to become more fully integrated within the EU under independence should see SNP taking virtually every constituency there. A referendum will follow. It will be won. Only afterwards will reality dawn. Scotland will be spurned by Europe as soon as it declares that it won't join Euro. It will be told in no uncertain terms its in a group of two with England. And it will suffer the economic consequences and until SNP is removed from what for some years will be a one party dictatorship. Meanwhile, the new "Always Conservative" England will leave the EU having lost the Union. Worse, the rancour within that governing party will render it dysfunctional.

Smashing. The perfect recipe for the island sinking into the sea while Europe floats about baling out its leaky boat. Time for the sensible to leave for New Zealand which some have said is where Gus O'Donnell is heading. He should know. He's been the Chief Administrator overseeing this foolhardy nonsense, one big ego at the service of himself and a few others but nobody else.

This is all very well - and I can easily imagine that the Union will dissolve at some point (rather than it merely being a case of Scotland going it alone) - but UK had better be careful how it "leaves" EU if ever it does so; in other words, it had better ensure that it gets expelled from EU, because leaving EU of its own volition is in contravention of the law and I'm far from certain from what source/s UK will borrow the money to pay the lawyers' fees and any fines / damages if it tries to pull that one. Furthermore, I cannot envisage Britain leaving EU under any circumstances without that event giving rise to long term economic woes far graver than those that will be visited upon it if the euro collapses; UK will be widely vilified and the financial consequences of that are not hard to imagine. And, come to that, why would New Zealand (of all places) want to accommodate a load of would-be immigrants from Britain (assuming that there were to be such)?

[Lateralthinking1]

Thanks. I have amended my original post slightly but not much. I am not advocating leaving the EU. I am hovering around the current decision although I deplore the lack of diplomacy as much as Ashdown. I also think that less flounce could have delivered an adequate, greater, distance while remaining more "within". I certainly don't identify with the right wing group of jubilation. But what I want matters far less than what the key players want. Significantly into this category come the previously marginalised Eurosceptics plus UKIP. And they are supported by an uncomprehending majority of the English electorate. I don't think they care how we leave. They just want us to do it. So that wing of EU opposition is stronger. And now with Scotland we have the dialogue potentially opening up in a different, albeit complex, way on a second flank. It will therefore be more difficult to manage.

I will be blunt here. I find the economics difficult. I like to feel though that I have an above average political sense. And what I see is that independence for Scotland has become an easier sell recently but it needed one more reason to win Scottish voters over. Cameron has just provided it. Salmond can whinge that Scotland's best interests aren't being served in a Westminster becoming ever distant from mainland Europe. Now if I were in Scotland I would be for the SNP. It would make a certain sense. But I'm not there. I'm in England and a dissolution wouldn't be great news for an Englander. Ironically, while the new Cameron position makes independence more likely, I think it makes an economically efficient independent Scotland less so. With the EU cold, it will be a pig's ear. So it isn't great news all round from a political and economic perspective. Who will end up suffering? The British voters.

I have been spouting forth about Europe lurching to the right. What I mean by that essentially is that we have extreme right wing economics across the board. Our Government is more right-wing economically than many. But the stepping back at least maintains our democracy. If some crackpot party wants to stand, if it wants to advocate Rolls Royce services in the public sector, and to hell with balancing the books, it can still do so. Cameron has done us a service there. Most of Europe won't have that choice. They are being told in an authoritarian manner what the limits are in terms of electoral choices. It is in that way that the 26 are now more right wing than us. And yet if we are not careful, we could still end up having one-party in governance in England and in Scotland. In a sense, we will have achieved on ourselves what we have tried to avoid the EU doing to us, namely a diminishing of democracy. The lack of democratic choice concerns me as much as the economic problems. I fear where we may go next.

[John Skelton]

Pythagorean theorem: 24 words

Lord’s prayer: 66 words

Archimedes’ Principle: 67 words

Ten Commandments: 179 words

Gettysburg address: 286 words

US Declaration of Independence: 1,300 words

US Constitution with all 27 Amendments: 7,818 words

EU regulations on the sale of cabbage: 26,911 words

Except it's not true. It's nonsense. It's a bit of 'urban mythology' that started life as a polemic against 'big government' in the USA in the 1940s. The target for the myth has switched to the EU, but that's all it is - a myth. (In the EU / EEC version it has been around since at least 1987). There is no 26,911 word EU regulation on the sale of cabbage.

http://www.snopes.com/language/document/cabbage.asp

Very well done indeed Mr Pee .

[scottycelt]

Has any member yet discovered one of these EU horror stories that has actually been verified as fact ...?

In answer to the original question, Davey had little alternative following his recent promises to his supporters to sort blasted Johnny Foreigner out. He boxed himself into a corner and has only himself to blame for the summit failure. Remember, he even cut ties with his conservative chums in the EU two years ago to side with more extremist right-wing parties in Europe, so what did he really expect to get from Merkel and Sarkozy? My own belief is that he never really wanted a deal, he merely wished to become a hero among his Euro-sceptic chums. No wonder Mr Farage has a broad smile on the Andrew Marr Show this morning.

Davey always 'makes the tough decisions' and does 'the right thing for the UK' ... he keeps telling us that ... trouble is even his deputy in the Coalition appears to think quite the opposite

The one true EU horror story now appears to be David Cameron himself ...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

No, No and No.

Davey generally gets it wrong. Academies, pensions, bankers and a completely selfish refusal to grasp the opportunity to introduce the Tobin Tax.
Plus his arrogance in dismissing the Lib-Dems' views.

[MrGongGong]

Oh, I think that it's rather late for Michael "prison WORKS!" Howard, don't you?

But if anyone is suggesing Michael Palin for PM, what about Joanna Lumley?

The perfect coalition IMV , though once we get the republic this would be the perfect pair to replace the queen

and for myths

http://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/press/euromyths/index_en.htm

though the beer and cheese is NOT a myth

............Gettysburg address: 286 words

US Declaration of Independence: 1,300 words

US Constitution with all 27 Amendments: 7,818 words

EU regulations on the sale of cabbage: 26,911 words

Number of times mrP advertises Sky per day ?

Number of knob jokes in mrP's posts per month ?

etc

[Pilchardman]

and a completely selfish refusal to grasp the opportunity to introduce the Tobin Tax.

That's a red herring. There was too much else coming with it. (That Cameron et al will still introduce anyway).

[Pilchardman]

Lord Oakeshot: "Many of us were shocked and stunned on Friday. But we are now finding our voice." Grrrrrrrrrrr. Tiger.

[Mr Pee]

Number of times mrP advertises Sky per day ?

Number of knob jokes in mrP's posts per month?

Sky:- You take it as advertising, I mean it as enthusing about something that I like.Tough.

As for "knob jokes per month"- erm.....zero. I put up one "That's Life" style picture of a Parsnip on a lighthearted thread, to provide a bit of amusement.

Still, never let the facts get in the way of your usual playground abuse eh, GG?

Even on the rare occasions when your posts are remotely comprehensible they're barely worth reading.

[John Skelton]

You accept that "EU regulations on the sale of cabbage: 26,911 words" is untrue, though, Mr Pee? One of those urban myth thingies?

On the Tobin Tax this is interesting (yes, I know it's from The Morning Star and not a respectable paper of record like The Daily Mail or The Guardian. Even so ).

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/112809