Did Davey do the right thing?

[John Skelton]

It was a brave decision to put Britain's interests first

What do you have in mind when you say that Cameron put Britain's interests first, Mr Pee ? Any specific interests (and whose specific interests) or is it just a general thing? It does seem that much of the knockabout discussion is charmingly short on detail (from either side, as it were). The relevant texts are easily available () http://www.european-council.europa.e...ompact?lang=en

[french frank]

Briefly: "The main elements of the fiscal compact include a requirement for national budgets to be in balance or in surplus"

Presumably Cameron-Osborne can't see a hope in hell of the UK budget being brought into balance (as the EU budget is in balance, btw) in the foreseeable future, in spite of their assurances that this is their aim.

Originally posted by Mr Pee:

The self serving, undemocratic European juggernaut had to be stopped

I'm not sure why it is 'self serving'. The percentage of the EU budget which is spent on administration (6%) would do the average charity (15%) credit. The rest is spent in the member states. Nor do I understand why it is 'undemocratic'; the budget at least passes through the parliament, the members of which are elected democratically. Just like our budget ... sort of.

[amateur51]

I am with Boris Johnson on this one- as he put it, the PM "played a blinder." It was a brave decision to put Britain's interests first, knowing that it would be unpopular with our continental friends. The self serving, undemocratic European juggernaut had to be stopped- or at least slowed down- sooner or later, and Cameron has taken the first step.

Of course Boris thinks that Cameron 'played a blinder' Mr Pee. Cameron's managed to alienate some of his coalition partners, the anti-Eu loons in the Tory party will want more of the same which he can't deliver, coalition falls apart and who is in pole position to take over after Cameron's doomed 'Who Governs Britain?' general election? - step forward Boris and his whiff-whaff

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

feels like failure to me ....

but what is the counterfactual? John Skelton is right to keep pointing to the communique which i have not and probably will not read .... relying on newsnight and the Graun and the Indie and the telegraph for a summary does not help much but it is clear it is essentially about austerity, that it is unclear to the bond markets how the Euro will be saved, does not address the chasm in productivity and economic capability between North and South in the UE etc etc ... suppose Cameron had gone along even in some kind of 'exceptionalist' way ...what then ...well we might be more friendly with the EU members .. have a less blighted reputation in EU countries


but what did Dave really want? What did he see as objectionable? there is no clarity on this at all it is very befuddling .... i do not like something that i do not understand, i see little england idiots i have detested these last fifty years or more triumphant ... is Dave's vision for the UK, as the Indie puts it today, 'the Cayman Islands without the sunshine ...' ?

btw Dave's body language screams shame and deception, he is putting a face on this ... he appears to me to be very uncomfortable about it all ... he may have done it solely to placate the little england goon squad as the tory party now is ...

was it truly only a choice between a German inspired and led austerity or the Sunless Tax haven for the City gangsters?

[John Skelton]

Presumably Cameron-Osborne can't see a hope in hell of the UK budget being brought into balance (as the EU budget is in balance, btw) in the foreseeable future, in spite of their assurances that this is their aim.

I'm not sure why it is 'self serving'. The percentage of the EU budget which is spent on administration (6%) would do the average charity (15%) credit. The rest is spent in the member states. Nor do I understand why it is 'undemocratic'; the budget at least passes through the parliament, the members of which are elected democratically. Just like our budget ... sort of.

I'm sure that the EU is administered to a high-level of competence and integrity (against the nonsense peddled by the British press).

If that's the case (it's Cameron-Osborne-Cable-Alexander, surely? ) what hope in hell is there of many of the other national budgets being brought into balance? And what will be the consequences for Europe of the attempt to do so? (what levels of social turmoil and violence will ensue? And what will be the 'democratic' response?). It's not an abstract exercise.

[Word]

http://www.european-council.europa.e...ompact?lang=en

Oh dear. The interesting bit would be the last link on the page, the 'European response to the crisis', which takes you to a page of links where the most recent is a link back to where you started from.
It would appear that they have two ideas to solve the current Euro crisis; lots of bluster and hope that a George Soros-type character doesn't call their bluff, and to tax financial transactions within the European Union, half of which take place in the UK.
Though the current situation is far from ideal, I don't think David Cameron had any choice but to say no. (Given the choice offered by Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy it's a shame we didn't have someone of Silvio Berlusconi's tact to deliver a suitably insulting response )

The longer term plans for sensible budget management look to be a good idea but, unfortunately, I fear there's a greater likelihood that we'll see genetically modified pigs take to the skies. I would expect those plans to go the way of the ones (sort of) in place to tackle climate change .


p.s. The Eurosceptic/UKIP rubbish is just an annoying distraction.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

The Eurosceptic/UKIP rubbish is just an annoying distraction.

annoying but not a distraction surely .... this goon squad will be baying and hounding now as never before ... they now scent Final Victory .... they are the dying scream of the british imperium, villainous patriotic saloon bar gangsters, just like the US Republicans, zombies who do not know they are already dead ...

i find this analysis helpful

[french frank]

If that's the case (it's Cameron-Osborne-Cable-Alexander, surely? )

Orl right . And it takes us right back to the general election and what the three parties were advocating as 'solutions' to the UK economic crisis: hit it hard, slower and gentler, sort of something between the two.

what hope in hell is there of many of the other national budgets being brought into balance? And what will be the consequences for Europe of the attempt to do so? (what levels of social turmoil and violence will ensue? And what will be the 'democratic' response?). It's not an abstract exercise.

You have the two alternatives of cutbacks and austerity v. spending to stimulate growth. Unknown levels of social turmoil v. unknown chances of success/making matters worse. Not a call I'd want to make.

[Mr Pee]

they are the dying scream of the british imperium, villainous patriotic saloon bar gangsters, just like the US Republicans, zombies who do not know they are already dead ...

Good heavens. You do like a bit of hyperbole, don't you?

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.......

[Pilchardman]

It's interesting. Cameron wasn't vetoing the right thing. The signatories have agreed to constitutionally embed cuts on state spending on social services, social protection, education, health and so on. This is a further attempt to cement neoliberalism into the foundations of the EU. It is an attempt (bought by the broadcasters) to depoliticise the most savagely ideological attacks we've seen in a generation. These attacks are seen as so apolitical that even the TUC accepts them as necessary, arguing over only degree. Cameron's opposition to the treaty is a red herring. (As is the so-called Tobin tax). The coalition is now planning further attacks of the same kind as the signatories, just in a way that is more politically advantageous to them. This is international capital entrenching its interests.

Hopefully Cameron's veto brings him nothing but trouble, so in that sense I'm glad he did it, but don't take your eye off the other hand. He's selling us a dummy.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Good heavens. You do like a bit of hyperbole, don't you?

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.......

nah just giving back a small bit of what they dish out ... Leigh on Friday on the 'bit of paper' betrayal; Perry on gays and Christianity .... any Rothermere Rag headline about Europe ...


mind you the more i reflect on this i agree it is not a situation in which one should jump and shout

[remdataram]

My view is that we still believe we are a great (i.e. with Empire) nation with huge wordwide influence. Maybe we were, but no longer.

The only 'Special relationship' we have with the USA is 'hosting' some of their nuclear arsenal.

Our reality is that our biggest trading partner is the EEC, and our dependance will grow. What I don't understand is the way we have progressively turned our backs on the EEC at every opportunity to influence how it operates. France and Germany are 'up there' because we continually fail to influence in a positive way.

Yesterday the EU left the UK behind - our choice, not theirs. (The fact that we won't build more runways at Heathrow is already costing us significant routes (China) and will progressively undermine not just the City but our Economy in terms of maintaining leading European hub/centre status).

It's all very well forging ahead on our own, but we have an unwieldy cost-base in the welfare state and NHS coupled with a poor manufacturing base. Our debt is higher than Greece or Spain - just scheduled over a longer period.

I'm sure yesterday will be remembered as a mistake bigger than Iraq or Afganistan - and with no outward American influence!

From here on Cameron will find it difficult to gain an audience when he does want to speak, probably when the Euro achieves parity with the Pound.

[MrGongGong]

Hopefully Cameron's veto brings him nothing but trouble, so in that sense I'm glad he did it, but don't take your eye off the other hand. He's selling us a dummy.

I'm not holding my breath at Cleggers doing the right thing, whooping his ass and bringing this whole charade down
It's a great deal for the UK to alienate all your principle trading partners ............ erm not sure how that works

it seems that he opted to placate the nutters in his party , so that's really going to enhance our credibility amongst the rest of Europe isn't it

My view is that we still believe we are a great (i.e. with Empire) nation with huge wordwide influence. Maybe we were, but no longer.

absolutely , it's time we just got over it and realised that we are small and largely insignificant in the grand scheme of things
but I guess the word "Humility" isn't in the vocabulary

[vinteuil]

part of me suspects that we've all got our eye on the wrong ball...

The meeting in Brussels did nothing seriously to address the immediate solvency problems of Greece and Italy - and the markets will sniff that out very soon indeed - nor to address the even more fundamental longer-term trade imbalances and competitivity issues of the Greek/Italian/Spanish/ Irish/French economies vis-à-vis the German/Austrian/Dutch economies - which the markets will also be on to.

And so the underlying problem of the Euro has been nowise solved - this is the "crisis" we have been facing over recent months - all the hoo-hah of British acceptance or otherwise of longer-term Euro structural plans may prove to be totally irrelevant if the Euro implodes in the next twelve months. And it may well be less than twelve months...

[amateur51]

Interesting stuff from The Economist ...

http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2011/12/britain-and-eu-1