Did Davey do the right thing?

**aeolium** · 13-12-11, 12:29

That's true, S_A, and the documentary Inside Job on the financial crisis in America showed how extensively those implicated in the disaster remained in positions of power or influence, and how little political reform of the banking system had taken place there.

But one shouldn't infer from that that the Europeans are hell-bent on hammering the banks. They have been just as keen to protect their own banks and load all the pain for sorting out the banks' problems on taxpayers, services, pensions, benefits in countries which have been forced to assume the burden of banking debt. So it is not just the UK that is pursuing the interests of the financial institutions.

**Biffo** · 13-12-11, 12:31

ahinton: We are 'out of' the so-called accord which surrenders more sovereignty to Brussels. We are not out of the EU, nor the Eurozone crisis. The Eurozone crisis will continue to affect us as well as our own considerable debt problems. We are already contributing money to the IMF and don't need to add to that with taxes from Brussels.

Anyone thinking that all is sweetness and light in the 26 or that Germany is entirely happy with the situation or that the 'accord' is a done deal should read this (all of it): http://www.spiegel.de/international/...803097,00.html

**Lateralthinking1** · 13-12-11, 12:36

Originally posted by aka Calum Da Jazbo View Post

bankocracy is the national interest ....

great piece by Aditya Chakrabortty

Yes, a very good piece indeed. Informative. It proves that the case for the City vis a vis national interest is entirely questionable and overstated. Probably bogus. I have to say that I think that the claims by the EU that it will apply more regulation to the banks is also overstated. It is the public across Europe that will bear the brunt.

And then this to add to the complexity. He shows among other things that there are considerably more British jobs in manufacturing than investment banking. This is useful. But yesterday after some discussion we agreed here that 50% of our exports are to the EU. I was therefore somewhat surprised to discover this morning that these account for just 10% of our jobs.

One sort of wonders what all the other jobs are here if they are neither from banking or exports to EU. Could it be that the 50% of exports not to the EU provide considerably more jobs than anyone is stating? And has anyone actually assessed to what extent our position in the EU has secured that trade or to what extent they helped pay for welfare and services in 1997-2010?

The more facts the better in my view.

**scottycelt** · 13-12-11, 12:48

Originally posted by John Skelton View Post

This http://notesbrokensociety.wordpress....of-eu-process/ is IMO a superb piece (from a consistently intelligent and thought provoking blog), written by someone with practical knowledge of the EU and EU institutions.

Really, everyone who has contributed to this thread should give it a read. Eurosceptic it isn't.

It is certainly not Eurosceptic, (ah, the relief) but it is very much the view of one on the Left. That is fair enough and I don't disagree with one or two of his points, but there are plenty on the Right and Centre with just as much or more practical knowledge of the EU and EU institutions who will take a different view..

The simple fact is that 26 out of the 27 countries signed up (or almost certainly will do) to the new agreement. One, who in my opinion probably had no intention of agreeing to anything and had his own narrow political agenda, did not. In my book that is as good as an unanimous decision.

Have the 26 all betrayed democracy and the European institutions? If they have there will be plenty of opportunity for their own national electorates to deal with them accordingly and in a thoroughly democratic manner!

**Biffo** · 13-12-11, 13:34

lateralthinking1: This Wikipedia article may explain a few of your questions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy...nited_Kingdoms

Unfortunately it doesn't give all the statistics for the same year but roughly, our GDP is $2.48 trillion with exports worth $486 billion (the 20% of GDP you mention). Half of those exports go to Europe with Germany our largest trading partner in the EU. Manufacturing (2009, slightly out of date) is worth $140 billion in gross value added and employs 2.6 million people. The figures for Finance are hopelessly out of date but in 2004 it was worth $86 billion in gross added value.

Completely up-to-date figures on the financial sector sem a bit hard to find but this is also interesting: http://economicsofcontempt.blogspot....or-too-big.htm

**johnb** · 13-12-11, 13:35

Originally posted by Lateralthinking1 View Post

This is useful. But yesterday after some discussion we agreed here that 50% of our exports are to the EU. I was therefore somewhat surprised to discover this morning that these account for just 10% of our jobs.

One sort of wonders what all the other jobs are here if they are neither from banking or exports to EU. Could it be that the 50% of exports not to the EU provide considerably more jobs than anyone is stating?

Lat, as you pointed out earlier, 10% of the total UK's trading activity (including domestic) is done with the EU so that it represents 10% of UK jobs isn't too surprising and, once again in line with what you previously posted, it might be that around 80% of jobs relate to non-export activity.

**Lateralthinking1** · 13-12-11, 13:52

Thank you to both. I can't get Biffo's links to work but I take the points you make.

On banking, possibly the best question anyone asked yesterday was the one from Nick Brown which referred to Basel II. Cameron looked awkward, paused, then got out of his seat over-dramatically, said "yes" and then quickly sat down again. I swear that he hadn't the faintest idea what Brown was talking about and that this was precisely what Brown was expecting.

**ahinton** · 13-12-11, 15:18