Did Davey do the right thing?

[ahinton]

Actually the inability of politicians and others to understand the difference between Arithmetic and Maths is what is largely at fault in this area ! simple minded accountants who really don't understand maths but can add up are largely to blame (not that I understand complex mathematics but I bet Xenakis would know what to do )

Maybe - but he was Greek!

[Lateralthinking1]

Bizarre PMQs. I watched it all. Clegg absent. Miliband clear in condemnation until it emerged that his aides were briefing that he wouldn't have signed the treaty. Downright weird. Alongside the inevitable party faithfuls it was interesting to see Bruce and Hughes attempting to smooth things over. We were also reminded that there are always some notable Labour lefties who can be relied on to be congratulatory at these times. A mentioning of Gould and Shore who had both said that the Euro would collapse.

On the coalition side, it looks as if everybody had decided they shouldn't rock the boat too much. Not huge amounts of ra-ra-ra from Tory Eurosceptics and Cameron really didn't seem to be pursuing their agenda. One wonders if Clegg was on the phone to European colleagues with Cameron's agreement saying "look, we still want to play a full part and I, Nick, believe in this so strongly I'd rather be doing this than be in the Commons, even if it brings ridicule". Alternatively, he might just have had a fit of pique.

I will never like Dave. Not at all. Not at any price. But it would be churlish not to say that he can perform extremely well in these situations and he did so today. Miliband was also fairly storming in presentation. He is getting better all the time there so it was just crazy that it was all trounced by confusion about his actual stance. Oddly, Balls was very tame while Osborne seemed to enjoy having a conversation with Opposition members throughout the event, the finger constantly wagging and half-manic smiles.

The Commons for once seemed almost like a proper debating chamber. Even if some were holding the line, it was clear that there are many different views. There was a bit more life and substance than of late. This is not to say that there is any greater sense of effectiveness and direction. A few Oscar nominations were there and it was peppered with witticisms of sorts. Frankly though, none of them could really be trusted to run a whelk stall with sufficient polystyrene punnets and plastic forks.

[scottycelt]

Thought it was a storming PMS with both leaders on top form. Ed surprised me by his aggression. Douglas Alexander was also excellent when interviewed on BBC later, but, yes, they are all actors really, and truth and fact rarely enter the discussion as it's all about party-political point-scoring.

That Speaker gets right up my nose, though, with his constant pompous lectures to the shouters and bawlers in the lower ranks. ... ' Honourable Members must realise that the Prime Minister must and will be heard ..' ... ****** spoilsport!

[MrGongGong]

Clegg absent.

along with his principles no doubt

[ahinton]

along with his principles no doubt

It might well have been Clegg before wicket otherwise...

[greenilex]

Now I understand - Davey was simply worrying about the banquet menu for the Emir of Bahrein. He has his priorities, after all.

While oilies need City gents, all may still pretend that we're not off to Hades in a handcart.

[teamsaint]

Now I understand - Davey was simply worrying about the banquet menu for the Emir of Bahrein. He has his priorities, after all.

While oilies need City gents, all may still pretend that we're not off to Hades in a handcart.

The general approach of our government makes you proud to be British.We have made sure the hardworking guys in the city are looked after in their old age, and now its Its really great to see us helping out our friends in Bahrain in their hour of need. The welfare state is alive and well........

[John Skelton]

This http://notesbrokensociety.wordpress....of-eu-process/ is IMO a superb piece (from a consistently intelligent and thought provoking blog), written by someone with practical knowledge of the EU and EU institutions.


Really, everyone who has contributed to this thread should give it a read. Eurosceptic it isn't.

[Lateralthinking1]

Yes, I think this is mainly right. I don't believe though that Cameron principally acted to appease Tory Eurosceptics. Rather he missed the opportunity to be a "good" European with some influence because he was concerned that any hardwiring of neoliberalism/neoconservatism into the EU structures would restrict his own similar hardwiring here in the UK!

This is where it all becomes oddly conflated. To be opposed to a wide ranging imposition of policy by the EU is easy for many Conservatives. However, to face an EU imposition of their own philosophy is trickier. Do they support it for its philosophy or oppose it for its imposition? I still think what was done was coincidentally right for democracy.

But if the existing long-term agreements are to be strengthened by structural reform, Cameron is unlikely to the man to lead. Unless, that is, it suits his outlook. That as far as I can see amounts only to the single market. Environmental issues and their like - well I doubt he has much interest one way or the other.

[teamsaint]

Yes, I think this is mainly right. I don't believe though that Cameron principally acted to appease Tory Eurosceptics. Rather he missed the opportunity to be a "good" European with some influence because he was concerned that any hardwiring of neoliberalism/neoconservatism into the EU structures would restrict his own similar hardwiring here in the UK!

This is where it all becomes oddly conflated. To be opposed to a wide ranging imposition of policy by the EU is easy for many Conservatives. However, to face an EU imposition of their own philosophy is trickier. Do they support it for its philosophy or oppose it for its imposition? I still think what was done was coincidentally right for democracy.

But if the existing long-term agreements are to be strengthened by structural reform, Cameron is unlikely to the man to lead. Unless, that is, it suits his outlook. That as far as I can see amounts only to the single market. Environmental issues and their like - well I doubt he has much interest one way or the other.

Long term I bet dave is in favour of emissions trading, since this is a tax that will benefit those who own energy resources....like his friends from Bahrain.

We really mustn't confuse cutting down pollution with an agenda to control us more charge us more for energy.

[aeolium]

Yes, that's an interesting piece. I'm not sure about his comments about the prospect for increased democracy in the EU. Whatever the theoretically increased powers for the European Parliament in the Lisbon Treaty, I don't think there's been any evidence that this has resulted in any greater control over the Council and the European Commission - certainly not in respect of limiting austerity measures being imposed on some member states. I'm not sure people have an idea what they are voting for when they are voting in European elections (unless it is against something, hence the unusually high vote for UKIP in 2009) and this is why the percentage of those voting has dropped to below 50% right across Europe.

But his point about how the unofficial treaty would be implemented given that it cannot use EU executive and judicial institutions is a good one. There were news reports that Cameron was going to waive any objections to the use of these bodies, but surely that is neither here nor there. If it is not a EU treaty then those institutions cannot be used, as I understand it.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

bankocracy is the national interest ....

great piece by Aditya Chakrabortty

[Biffo]

Cameron's critics seem to have had a field day in the European Parliament.

'French MEP Joseph Daul, who chairs the parliament's centre-right European People's Party group..... said that "26 of the 27 states [had] shown responsibility", agreeing that "shared sovereignty is better than sovereignty taken over by the markets".

If Cameron had signed we would certainly have had a referendum. How many of the electorate would agree with M Daul?

Another MEP (German) blamed the whole crisis on the City of London. Not Greece et al borrowing way beyond their means then? Even if he is right doesn't it rather negate M Daul's comment - 17 countries pooled their sovereignty in the Eurozone and even with the most powerful economic force in Europe amongst their number they have been almost totally ineffective against 'the markets'.

We are well out of it.

[ahinton]

Cameron's critics seem to have had a field day in the European Parliament.

'French MEP Joseph Daul, who chairs the parliament's centre-right European People's Party group..... said that "26 of the 27 states [had] shown responsibility", agreeing that "shared sovereignty is better than sovereignty taken over by the markets".

If Cameron had signed we would certainly have had a referendum. How many of the electorate would agree with M Daul?

Another MEP (German) blamed the whole crisis on the City of London. Not Greece et al borrowing way beyond their means then? Even if he is right doesn't it rather negate M Daul's comment - 17 countries pooled their sovereignty in the Eurozone and even with the most powerful economic force in Europe amongst their number they have been almost totally ineffective against 'the markets'.

We are well out of it.

What precisely do you consider us to be "out of" following - and as a direct conseqince of - last week's events (in the long term as well as the short)?...

[Serial_Apologist]

bankocracy is the national interest ....

great piece by Aditya Chakrabortty

I think everyone should read Calum's link before further posting. I for one hadn't realised the relatively small tax revenues taken from the City: this certainly bears out all earlier suspicions that Cameron's no, and Clegg's exoneration of Cameron, is all about croneyism.