Pronunciation watch

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Here we have a spelling anomaly too, for years, we added an S, and when Ifirst visited France in 1965, I was staggered when the train stopped at a station called LYON. I thought there'd been some mistake, but soon discovered tat we British has been making the mistake, perhaps to make it look more French (ditto Marseille/Marseilles).

I didn't know thi. Many thanks, Alpie

[Lat-Literal]

He was always known as "Prof", but was pronounced by others with an "eye".

Thank you Eine.

Can I go back to calling the Seine "Sane" or do I have to adjust to "Sene"?

[gurnemanz]

What about the "madeleine"? Woman and Proustian cake.

[french frank]

Thank you Eine.

Can I go back to calling the Seine "Sane" or do I have to adjust to "Sene"?

Does your 'sene' rhyme with dene or den? Sen/Den would be approximately correct (and madelENE). But if English people want to pronounce foreign names/words in their own English way, they will no doubt continue to do so! The move appears to be to at least attempt to match the name to that used by the indigènes. Thus also Beijing, Sri Lanka, Mumbai which some English appear to resent.

[Lat-Literal]

Does your 'sene' rhyme with dene or den? Sen/Den would be approximately correct (and madelENE). But if English people want to pronounce foreign names/words in their own English way, they will no doubt continue to do so! The move appears to be to at least attempt to match the name to that used by the indigènes. Thus also Beijing, Sri Lanka, Mumbai which some English appear to resent.

It rhymes with den.

I wasn't clear on that point.

I'm pretty sure that more people in broadcasting are using it.

But I would see a distinction in pronunciation between the names Madelene/Madeline and Madeleine.

[Serial_Apologist]

TORTOYS, for the well-known reptile and declining in numbers garden resident? I ask because we've been considering English adaptations of French names. It was always TORTUS to us. As Alice said, "We called him Tortus, because he taught us". I ask what is now considered correct pronunciation because both an interviewer and interviewee spoke of "tortoys" just now on the R4 lunchtime news programme.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

TORTOYS, for the well-known reptile and declining in numbers garden resident? I ask because we've been considering English adaptations of French names. It was always TORTUS to us. As Alice said, "We called him Tortus, because he taught us". I ask what is now considered correct pronunciation because both an interviewer and interviewee spoke of "tortoys" just now on the R4 lunchtime news programme.

Tortoys goes with Febyooery and Berk/Gerd, etc.

[french frank]

It rhymes with den.

I wasn't clear on that point.

I'm pretty sure that more people in broadcasting are using it.

Then they are being more 'correct', francophonically, but English has such different phonetic characteristics (strong stress, tendency to diphthongise) that it's hard to say what is 'correct' for English speakers. From what you say, it sounds as if they are pronouncing Seine more like the French do.

But I would see a distinction in pronunciation between the names Madelene/Madeline and Madeleine.

Yes, though I understood gurnemanz to be speaking of the French word indicating, among other things, small cakes. Once it passes into English, spelling and pronunciation varies depending on what it's referring to.

[jean]

Tortoys goes with Febyooery...

But the first is a 'spelling pronunciation' , as adopted by the newly literate who don't just know which letters to mispronounce/leave out, and the other is the exact opposite.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

But the first is a 'spelling pronunciation' , as adopted by the newly literate who don't just know which letters to mispronounce/leave out, and the other is the exact opposite.

You are, of course, absolutely correct.

[Lat-Literal]

Then they are being more 'correct', francophonically, but English has such different phonetic characteristics (strong stress, tendency to diphthongise) that it's hard to say what is 'correct' for English speakers. From what you say, it sounds as if they are pronouncing Seine more like the French do.

Yes, though I understood gurnemanz to be speaking of the French word indicating, among other things, small cakes. Once it passes into English, spelling and pronunciation varies depending on what it's referring to.

I agree - and will continue with "Sane" as my pronunciation.

I'm also for Tortus and Zebbra.

[vinteuil]

It's a curious thing - French place names: "Paris" is the only one we give an English pronunciation - Lyons, Boulogne, Reims, Calais, Grez-sur-Loing ... all given with some attempt at a French pronunciation. WW1 soldiers encountering "Ypres" for the first time may have resulted in The Wipers Times, but it didn't catch on. Place names in other countries we say "in English" (Milan, Naples, St Petersburg, Athens ... ) but, apart from Paris, not French. Probably the result of being harried by the Normans.

.

... I'm not sure that's completely true. I think most English people wd pronounce Metz as [mɛts] , and not [mɛs] as the French do. And wd tend to pronounce the x in Auxerre as an x rather than an s...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metz

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxerre

.

[Bryn]

... I'm not sure that's completely true. I think most English people wd pronounce Metz as [mɛts] , and not [mɛs] as the French do. And wd tend to pronounce the x in Auxerre as an x rather than an s...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metz

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxerre

.

Don't get me started on Françaix.

[Stanfordian]

I agree - and will continue with "Sane" as my pronunciation.

I'm also for Tortus and Zebbra.

Hiya Lat-Literal,

I particularly recall the French speaking TV presenter Fiona Bruce, who studied French at Oxford University, on the Antiques Roadshow pronouncing the River Seine clearly as 'Sen'. I'm not sure how the French pronounce it?

[Sir Velo]

It's a curious thing - French place names: "Paris" is the only one we give an English pronunciation - Lyons, Boulogne, Reims, Calais, Grez-sur-Loing ... all given with some attempt at a French pronunciation.

Depends whether you consider "Ber'loin" or "Reems" as attempts at French pronunication. I rarely hear Antibes or Juan-les-Pins correctly pronounced either!