Pronunciation watch

[Richard Tarleton]

I think that it is likely to be the other way round: The second is accented and therefore long. My knowledge of Spanish is very limited (Dos cervezas por favor) but I thought that Spanish only really has long and short vowels inasmuch as vowels tend to be lengthened when stressed. They are pronounced exactly the same and the only difference is in length, whereas in English a long "a" is a phonetically distinct sound from a short "a". (cart/cat). NB This is off the top of my head and I may have got this wrong.

Subcontrabass was talking about the name of the painting here, not Spanish(see ##1718-19). See my post here for the Spanish pronunciation.

[french frank]

I think that it is likely to be the other way round:

I'm not sure that that is a rule. I remember at school we always used to recite a-MO, a-MAS, a-MAT whereas later development indicates it would have been stressed on the first, short, vowel; A-mo, A-mas, A-mat. But a-MA-mus, a-MA-tis and A-mant. I think words built up on the -are conjugation will be stressed on the first syllable if disyllabic (salvo), on the second if trisyllabic (salvare, salvator) and on the third if tetrasyllabic (salvaTOrem), which would be the rule which indicates sal-VA-tor (mundi), not SAL-vator. Does that work most of the time?

[jean]

...A-mant...

It's a very long time since I've had to do any scansion, but isn't a vowel followed by two consonants always long?

[french frank]

It's a very long time since I've had to do any scansion, but isn't a vowel followed by two consonants always long?

That is the rule in scansion, yes. But if the second syllable had been stressed, it would have meant that syllable would have been stressed in French, whereas aiment is what you get. How does that work with Italian?

[french frank]

How does that work with Italian?

As far as I can see Italian and Spanish also stress the first syllable in the 3º person plural which suggests the Romans did too.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I'm not sure that that is a rule. I remember at school we always used to recite a-MO, a-MAS, a-MAT whereas later development indicates it would have been stressed on the first, short, vowel; A-mo, A-mas, A-mat. But a-MA-mus, a-MA-tis and A-mant.

Our Latin teacher actually taught us to pronounce these correctly, but we still got it wrong. I suppose because we were emphasising the bits that were important to remember - i.e the endings.

[jean]

That is the rule in scansion, yes.

Yes, I realise I'm talking about quantity rather than stress.

But I always found it difficult to imagine how a 'long' vowel could be unstressed, assuming there was any observable stress in Latin at all.

But the fact is that in the absence of recordings from the period, we know very little about stress in Classical Latin.

[french frank]

But the fact is that in the absence of recordings from the period, we know very little about stress in Classical Latin.

But there is evidence in the development of the Romance languages; and where they all agree, in this one respect, we can be sure that we know what spoken Latin sounded like across the Empire. Classical Latin, as you say, has quantity rather than stress, and in poetry scansion is about rhythm rather than accent, and has its own rules.

[vinteuil]

.

... today Clemency Burton Hill introduced and followed Judith Bingham's setting of Geo: Herbert's "Love bade me welcome... " with the pronunciation "Love *bayed me welcome... ". Surely surely the past tense of bid is pronounced "bad" not *"bayed" ???

[Bryn]

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... today Clemency Burton Hill introduced and followed Judith Bingham's setting of Geo: Herbert's "Love bade me welcome... " with the pronunciation "Love *bayed me welcome... ". Surely surely the past tense of bid is pronounced "bad" not *"bayed" ???

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44367/love-iii Not bad.

Apparently some Americans say "bard". "Bayed" or "baid" is a very common error.

[Bert Coules]

At least she didn't come out with "bidded"...

[french frank]

.

... today Clemency Burton Hill introduced and followed Judith Bingham's setting of Geo: Herbert's "Love bade me welcome... " with the pronunciation "Love *bayed me welcome... ". Surely surely the past tense of bid is pronounced "bad" not *"bayed" ???

I'd guess it would have been in Herbert's day. Old spelling (and pronunciation) seems to have been bæd. Not sure why the 'e' would have been added but once there, the pronounce-as-you-spell brigæd took over.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Well, I though the past tense of bid was bade.

[jean]

It is - pronounced bad. See above.

[muzzer]

I'm 99.9% sure the newsreader on R3 has just referred to "Theresa May's de-PU-ty" being sacked. I'm afraid I cringed and yes, thought it was heinous enough an error to come straight here to post about it.