Pronunciation watch

[Richard Tarleton]

If you mean literally, no. But if this is a story I've told before, do stop me

Given that no one knows everything about the entire range of core classical music, the problem is exacerbated when someone has to announce 20+ pieces on a Monday, another 20+ on a Tuesday, another 20+ on … and so on. Is it possible for them to be able to prepare accurate, informative details on 100+ pieces in a week? Especially if they're writing books, newspaper articles, presenting other radio programmes at the same time?

The thing is, there are people out there who could do this, without having to draw on people who can't. It's in large part down to the selection criteria applied today - they choose R3 presenters by a different set of criteria to those which once pertained.

I've referred before, I know, to Stephanie Hughes's [an outstanding R3 annuncer of a decade or two ago] description of her audition for R3. She was handed a list of difficult composers' and performers' names and invited to read them out, which she was able to do. Nowadays, I don't suppose they do any such thing. Something which would once have been regarded as a core skill for an R3 presenter, isn't any more.

[Dave2002]

The thing is, there are people out there who could do this, without having to draw on people who can't. It's in large part down to the selection criteria applied today - they choose R3 presenters by a different set of criteria to those which once pertained.

On a somewhat lighter note I've just listened to an old edition of Ed Reardon's Week - Cheese Cricket. Pretty much sums up some of the issues - though not necessarily for R3.

[french frank]

Precisely. Some folks round here just don't take these things seriously enough - or maybe it just doesn't matter to them.

The idea I get is that Radio 3 finds it very difficult to get seriously informed presenters, given what they are asking them to do. I didn't listen to Radio 3 or the Third Programme 'back then', but I don't think that announcers (call them what you will) were touted as 'trusted guides' then. I don't think that someone who has a first in Music from Oxford automatically becomes, as a graduate, an 'expert'.

As someone who has three degrees in French literature and nine years of university teaching, I am NOT 'an expert in French literature' (though I can pronounce most of the names!). I know c. 10% about French medieval literature and 1% of 'French literature'. I guess that's about par for the course for an 'expert'.

Where you find someone with a huge range of, even superficial, knowledge of 'classical music' I've no idea.

[jean]

Harassment or harassment?

I think the latter just sounds ugly.

Mind you, it's ugly behaviour, so perhaps...

[french frank]

Harassment or harassment?

I think the latter just sounds ugly.

Mind you, it's ugly behaviour, so perhaps...

We used to talk about people being harassed (meaning worried and under pressure), and harassing. But harassment in the sense of serious pestering has become commoner with the reported behaviour, and has perhaps been reintroduced with the American stress?

[jean]

That's probably true, though there's a valiant rearguard action from some presenters - Evan Davis on Newsnight, for example!

[vinteuil]

.

... for lat-lit and gurnemanz : if you look Very Carefully and Very Quickly At The Very Beginning of this clip you will see that the 'bus is moving off from Cearn Way -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBzobop3bVI

Nostalgia rocks!


.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It Scotland the usual pronunciation for the language, people and culture is Seltic. After some years on a course in the Department of 'Seltic' Studies in Aberdeen, it took me a while to readapt to the Germanic Keltic (a frequent spelling in the earlier days of linguistics) when I came back to England.

Yes. We had a Scottish university lecturer who referred to Seltic music. Anyway, C followed by E is invariably the soft consonant sound. There are very few exceptions. Don't be too sceptical about this.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The idea I get is that Radio 3 finds it very difficult to get seriously informed presenters, given what they are asking them to do. I didn't listen to Radio 3 or the Third Programme 'back then', but I don't think that announcers (call them what you will) were touted as 'trusted guides' then. I don't think that someone who has a first in Music from Oxford automatically becomes, as a graduate, an 'expert'.

As someone who has three degrees in French literature and nine years of university teaching, I am NOT 'an expert in French literature' (though I can pronounce most of the names!). I know c. 10% about French medieval literature and 1% of 'French literature'. I guess that's about par for the course for an 'expert'.

Where you find someone with a huge range of, even superficial, knowledge of 'classical music' I've no idea.

Indeed - but the work under discussion here isn't an obscure work with (say) a Swedish or Dutch title; it's a regular feature of the standard/mainstream orchestral repertoire, so shouldn't require an "expert" to be able to pronounce the title accurately - or, if their German isn't fluent, to give the English translation. To attempt the original and fail is what makes the announcer seem foolish - and unprofessional.

[french frank]

Yes. We had a Scottish university lecturer who referred to Seltic music. Anyway, C followed by E is invariably the soft consonant sound. There are very few exceptions. Don't be too sceptical about this.

I'm not at all sceptical :smiley. I was just replying to Lat's enquiry as to why the Scottish football team was Seltic rather than Keltic. Probably goes back to the Auld Alliance and Keltic to the German linguists!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I'm not at all sceptical :smiley. I was just replying to Lat's enquiry as to why the Scottish football team was Seltic rather than Keltic. Probably goes back to the Auld Alliance and Keltic to the German linguists!

I was merely highlighting "sceptical" as a exception to the general rule.

[jean]

Why is the Genova football team called Genoa?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Talking of hard and soft Cs, it's less clear-cut with hard and soft Gs.

Gill: a quarter of a pint (soft G)
Gill: fish breathing aid (hard G)

Gillingham, Kent (soft G)
Gillingham, Dorset (hard G)

[french frank]

I was merely highlighting "sceptical" as a exception to the general rule.

It's not entirely an exception because 'sc' is a different consonant from c on its own (so I missed your point ) and was often skeptical in older texts where recognised as coming from σκέπτεσθαι, from which the -scope words also derive. I presume it came in with the Renaissance 'learned borrowings'. But in that sense it's rare: I can only find scelalgia which is similar, in replacing the k with c but retaining the pronunciation.

[kernelbogey]

Indeed - but the work under discussion here isn't an obscure work with (say) a Swedish or Dutch title; it's a regular feature of the standard/mainstream orchestral repertoire, so shouldn't require an "expert" to be able to pronounce the title accurately - or, if their German isn't fluent, to give the English translation. To attempt the original and fail is what makes the announcer seem foolish - and unprofessional.