Pronunciation watch

[Pabmusic]

Ff has explained beautifully why there is a distinction between anger and banger, or finger and singer.

But I suppose if you're used to a variety of English where the distinction isn't made, you don't hear any difference, so you don't see how it can be there at all.

You have it, Jean.

I have never pronounced 'singer' or 'banger' with a hard G. That's not a personal fad, it's how everyone spoke around me (in the South generally) when I was young. Some Northern types used a hard G (though not all by any means) but that was merely quaint. It's moments like this when you feel young (supercilious and patronising) again.

[Pulcinella]

I really do remain confused!
But I have thought of a use/pronunciation that I had not considered before.
If I had the heat setting too high while I ironed my shirt, I might be a singer of my clothing, but that surely is not the pronunciation given to a choir member, even in the South!

[Pabmusic]

I really do remain confused!
But I have thought of a use/pronunciation that I had not considered before.
If I had the heat setting too high while I ironed my shirt, I might be a singer of my clothing, but that surely is not the pronunciation given to a choir member, even in the South!

Ah, but that's a different word (though spelt the same - at least as singer). I guess we all say sinj (and presumably sinjer).

[Pabmusic]

...but that surely is not the pronunciation given to a choir member, even in the South!

Coleridge Taylor's A Tale of Old Japan begins with the choir exclaiming (ff) "Peonies! Peonies!"

Now there's a pronunciation problem if ever there was one.

[Pulcinella]

Ah, but that's a different word (though spelt the same - at least as singer). I guess we all say sinj (and presumably sinjer).

Indeed, but I was trying to find a difference in pronunciation between singer and finger, and thought that I had found one, albeit not the one ff and jean are talking about.
And I don't have a problem with peonies, either: do tell.

[Pabmusic]

Indeed, but I was trying to find a difference in pronunciation between singer and finger, and thought that I had found one, albeit not the one ff and jean are talking about.
And I don't have a problem with peonies, either: do tell.

Well, I wasn't conducting so I didn't have to deal with it. But it was done at Keele University, and at the first rehearsal, trying to get 50 teenagers to sing that fortissimo with a straight face. Well...

I was just listening because I knew I'd be playing in it.

[french frank]

Indeed, but I was trying to find a difference in pronunciation between singer and finger, and thought that I had found one, albeit not the one ff and jean are talking about.

I made the point that it was Received Pronunciation (RP) that distinguished between ˈæŋɡər (anger) and 'bæŋər (banger).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I really do remain confused!

As did I when I started studying phonetics as part of my English Language degree many moons ago. I think that being told that "people" pronounced "singing" as something closer to "sinyinn" was exactly what caused me to concentrate on Literature after the First Year!

The words are from old German/Dutch/Anglo-Saxon - take no notice of those misled by French influences!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I made the point that it was Received Pronunciation (RP) that distinguished between ˈæŋɡər (anger) and 'bæŋər (banger).

Yes - just as Harold Godwinson got the point of Received Archery!

[Pulcinella]

I made the point that it was Received Pronunciation (RP) that distinguished between ˈæŋɡər (anger) and 'bæŋər (banger).

Yes you did, but I still don't really hear it, and I didn't think I had cloth ears.
But my partner assures me that when in preparation for ironing the shirts I ask him to bring the hangers down I don't pronounce it quite to rhyme with any anger if I were to singe one!
He's from Sunderland, by the way, so we both have good hard northern accents.
:-)

[gurnemanz]

I made the point that it was Received Pronunciation (RP) that distinguished between ˈæŋɡər (anger) and 'bæŋər (banger).

As you describe it, there seems to be a sort of rule with "banger", "clanger" etc as derivatives from verbs and "anger", "hunger" as underived words in their own right. Strangely, derivatives from adjectives, as with the comparative of long, strong, young, seem to prefer the hard "g". Perversely, "wronger" goes the the other way.

[french frank]

As you describe it, there seems to be a sort of rule with "banger", "clanger" etc as derivatives from verbs and "anger", "hunger" as underived words in their own right. Strangely, derivatives from adjectives, as with the comparative of long, strong, young, seem to prefer the hard "g". Perversely, "wronger" goes the the other way.

The fact that adjectives have a different phonetic development is interesting. Though the word 'wronger' is little used as a comparative, is it? As a noun, the g - regularly - is not sounded, deriving from the verb 'to wrong'. (Or am I getting muddled now? :-) )

[MrGongGong]

I say sin-Ging
which means I get a rather good rhythm when talking about this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAF3fWo8aoM

[gurnemanz]

The fact that adjectives have a different phonetic development is interesting. Though the word 'wronger' is little used as a comparative, is it? As a noun, the g - regularly - is not sounded, deriving from the verb 'to wrong'. (Or am I getting muddled now? :-) )

Maybe "wronger" behaves differently just because it is a rare usage and more normally a noun with a soft "g". It is not that common even as a noun, but is used as such by Iago in a famous speech:

Iago:
O, beware, my lord, of jealousy;
It is the green-ey'd monster, which doth mock
The meat it feeds on. That cuckold lives in bliss,
Who, certain of his fate, loves not his wronger:
But O, what damnèd minutes tells he o'er
Who dotes, yet doubts, suspects, yet strongly loves!

[french frank]

Maybe "wronger" behaves differently just because it is a rare usage and more normally a noun with a soft "g". It is not that common even as a noun, but is used as such by Iago in a famous speech:

Yes, even the noun is rare. I was getting muddled, thinking of a 'wronger of rights' rather than a 'righter of wrongs'. But I would say ˈrɒŋər rather than ˈrɒŋgər, if I said it.