Pronunciation watch

[amateur51]

Rammo has been played quite a bit lately. I find the pronunciation interesting because there is a beatum medium between the excruciating exaggerated guttural 'R' and the hammer on the final syllable (sort of GhrraMAW) and the in-your-face Englishness of RAMmoh-oo. The balance of 'correctness', comprehensibility and unobtrusiveness presents a degree of difficulty as to make it impossible, apparently.

I have a friend who hits her French 'r's in the style you mention, french frank, and it does make me fear for nearby delicate objects, sleeping babes, setting jellies etc.

This post has made me laugh a lot - thank you!

[Roslynmuse]

This is a recent post in the rmcr newsgroup:

I've mentioned before that a not-unknown conductor I asked about Radio 3's bad habits told me they mispronounce things and mumble as a matter of policy, because some moron at the top thinks getting it too right is going to put humble folks off.

It doesn't explain Katie D going the extra mile and a half, though...

Can anyone explain why the BBC pronunciations 'Steve Rishe' and 'Don Jew-Ann' are still used?

[french frank]

It doesn't explain Katie D going the extra mile and a half, though...

Can anyone explain why the BBC pronunciations 'Steve Rishe' and 'Don Jew-Ann' are still used?

My preference is for Don Jew-Ann, which I see as merely an old anglicisation, on the lines of Joolius Seize-er, or Leghorn.

[ahinton]

It doesn't explain Katie D going the extra mile and a half, though...

Or why, in so doing, she doesn't take herself out of earshot...

[Bryn]

It doesn't explain Katie D going the extra mile and a half, though...

Can anyone explain why the BBC pronunciations 'Steve Rishe' ...

'cos that's the way he likes it. The German pronunciation has negative connotations for many Jewish people.

[vinteuil]

My preference is for Don Jew-Ann, which I see as merely an old anglicisation, on the lines of Joolius Seize-er, or Leghorn.

Very much agree.

Jew-Ann. And Kwik-Sot too, please. None of this poncey "Look at me I've been to Eebeetha!" pretend forren' pronunciations. Don Jew-Ann and Don Kwik-sot are well established English usages. Tho' I am sympathetic to "Kee-shott" which is at least closer to what Cervantes might have had in mind than the grotesque modern attempts at "Kee-Hoe-Tay"

[french frank]

the grotesque modern attempts at "Kee-Hoe-Tay"

I once heard AS Byatt essay Kee-Hoe-Tay - the diphthongs had to be heard to be believed!

[vinteuil]

Very much agree.

Jew-Ann. And Kwik-Sot too, please. None of this poncey "Look at me I've been to Eebeetha!" pretend forren' pronunciations. Don Jew-Ann and Don Kwik-sot are well established English usages. Tho' I am sympathetic to "Kee-shott" which is at least closer to what Cervantes might have had in mind than the grotesque modern attempts at "Kee-Hoe-Tay"

... sad person that I am I have just checked - and I see that I was saying the same thing back in 2010 on the old BBC boards -

"I agree with oldcrofter - D Juan and Quixote have been part of the English language for centuries, and have become fully anglicised, together with adjectives like quixotic [kwiksotik].

I respect full-blooded pedants who make a case for pronouncing Quixote as it wd have been pronounced in la Mancha in the 16th century, which I think is something like "kee-shot" ( and here the French "Don Quichotte" comes close.)

I have less time for look-at-me pedants who wish to demonstrate a passing acquaintance with today's Costa Brava and want to make people think they are right-on by affecting something closer to khoo-ann, ki-hoa-tee...

Wrong, wrong, wrong"

[french frank]

... sad person that I am I have just checked - and I see that I was saying the same thing back in 2010 on the old BBC boards -

I have battled for Jew-Ann and Kwisot for years - if only to save people from the embarrassment of attempting anything resembling a Spanish accent.

[Mary Chambers]

We could always settle for Donkey Shot, as I've heard in the ballet world.

[Roslynmuse]

'cos that's the way he likes it.

Didn't know that.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

'cos that's the way he likes it. The German pronunciation has negative connotations for many Jewish people.

I thought he preferred a pronunciaiton closer to the first syllable of "righteous" - a "tch" rather than a "sh"? (Never met him or heard him say his name, but that was the pronunciation used in the "South Bank Show" special of a few years ago.)

[Richard Tarleton]

I have battled for Jew-Ann and Kwiksot for years - if only to save people from the embarrassment of attempting anything resembling a Spanish accent.

I'm all for this.

As a matter of interest, what do the Germanisations of these names sound like? (I've often wondered before, how did the names sound to Strauss?)

[doversoul1]

The only way in which those who do not know how to pronounce say, Goethe, will learn is to hear it spoken correctly. Perhaps pronouncing 'menu' as if it were French is going too far: my head of department, whose father once danced the fox-trot with Lady Diana Cooper, did this but his was a definite hyperlect. Great fun to hear, all the same.

I don’t think it is hearing that is the problem. I once had a group of people (native speakers of English) write down a list of Japanese names and words using Roma alphabet as the words were spoken to them. It was hilarious. In reverse, when I see a classical music catalogue written in Japanese. I have to think very hard to recognise many performers’ names.

Reproducing names in a different sound system is always problematic. I prefer Radio3’s presenters use mildly or appropriately Anglicised pronunciation so that the talk/speech sounds natural.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Can anyone explain why the BBC pronunciations 'Steve Rishe' and 'Don Jew-Ann' are still used?

It's the BBC's lack of consistency that puzzles me. They go overboard to be authentic in some instances, yet Hispanic pronunciations often pass them by.