Pronunciation watch

[scottycelt]

I think you'll find that people in northern England generally pronounce it "skon".

Well I suppose it depends what you consider 'northern England'. I reside about 12 miles south of Manchester and have very rarely heard a 'skon' mentioned, but have been offered plenty of 'skoans' ... and I don't generally mix with the upper and pretentious middle-classes either.

Not that I wish to provoke any sort of controversy here on this most delicate matter ...

[Uncle Monty]

The name pikelet, which only appears in print at the end of the 18th century, is thought to come from a W Midlands corruption of the Welsh term bara pysgyd

Que?!

I know yow spaik a bit foonay in Brummie -- but I'm at a loss to see how anyone, however corrupt, could get "pikelet" out of that

My day has already been ruined by BBC tv in Bristol -- we went from the Weather ("thuh end of the rain in thuh east") to the Traffic ("thuh earlier accident on thuh A417") to the Local News ("thuh arrangements for the funeral").

Why, oh why, etc.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Well I suppose it depends what you consider 'northern England'. I reside about 12 miles south of Manchester and have very rarely heard a 'skon' mentioned, but have been offered plenty of 'skoans' ... and I don't generally mix with the upper and pretentious middle-classes either.

Not that I wish to provoke any sort of controversy here on this most delicate matter ...

MAybe things have changed around there then. I was brought up in Marple, and it was definitely "skon". It was many years later, at boarding school, where I heard some people saying "skoan".

[french frank]

My father's family came from the W. Midlands/Wales but I think in Somerset 'pikelets' was the name used. I never heard them referred to as 'crumpets'. I pictured the word as 'pie-clets'. The OED gives the Welsh form as 'bara pyglyd' which does look convincing.

And on the subject of drop scones (which indeed we often had for high tea or late 'supper', served on a cake-stand with other cakes in Aberdeen, and called 'pancakes'), erm, embarrassingly, I call drop scohns to rhyme with stones . Now there's consistency for you!

[mercia]

consistency

important in the making thereof

[Bryn]

"Schedule" on this side of the Atlantic should be pronounced "shed".

I suppose it depends on which foreign influence one wishes to follow. The word got here via the Old French cédule from either the late medieval Latin scedula or late scheda (there is some considerable debate over which). Apparently the French influenced pronunciation is gaining some ground over The Pond, so it's something of a reciprocal arrangement.

[vinteuil]

The OED gives the Welsh form as 'bara pyglyd' which does look convincing.

My apologies all around (especially to Uncle Monty, if I raised his blood pressure... ) Alan Davidson [Oxford Companion to Food] also has bara pyglyd. I mistranscribed earlier.

re the 'scoan' pronunciation - it might prevail where people have recently learned how to read, and where their pronunciation is influenced by the spelling. This might explain the reported prevalence around Manchester.

[Bryn]

Que?!

I know yow spaik a bit foonay in Brummie -- but I'm at a loss to see how anyone, however corrupt, could get "pikelet" out of that

Simples! They dropped the bread and it fell butter side down, so they cast it aside.

[mercia]

it might prevail where people have recently learned how to read ..........This might explain the reported prevalence around Manchester.

ouch!

[Ferretfancy]

Sometimes I despair at the lack of social refinement evinced on these pages.

Luckily there is some advice at hand for those of you who fall short of the best standards --

" Phone for the fish knives, Norman
As cook is a little unnerved
You kiddies have crumpled the serviettes
And I must have things daintily served.

Are the requisites all in the toilet?
The frills round the cutlets can wait
Till the girl has replenished the cruets
And switched on the logs in the grate

It's ever so close in the lounge, dear,
But the vestibule's comfy for tea
And Howard is out riding on horseback
So do come and Take some with me

Now here is a fork for your pastries
And do use the couch for your feet;
I know what I wanted to ask you-
Is trifle sufficient for sweet?

Milk and then just as it comes dear?
I'm afraid the preserve's full of stones;
Beg pardon, I'm soiling the doilies
With afternoon tea-cakes and SCONES.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

If you're going to use verse to demonstrate pronunciation, then consider this:

Loudly let the trumpet bray!
Tantantara!
Proudly bang the sounding brasses!
Tzing! Boom!
As upon its lordly way
This unique procession passes,
Tantantara! Tzing! Boom!
Bow, bow, ye lower middle classes!
Bow, bow, ye tradesmen, bow, ye masses!
Blow the trumpets, bang the brasses!
Tantantara! Tzing! Boom!
We are peers of highest station,
Paragons of legislation,
Pillars of the British nation!
Tantantara! Tzing! Boom!

Take your pick. Is it "brassiz"/"classiz" or "marssiz"?

[Don Petter]

("thuh earlier accident on thuh A417")

Apart from the 'thuhs' (about which I agree with you), I always get annoyed at every accident having to be an 'earlier' one. Surely they are all by definition earlier, unless we are able to hear the sqealing of tyres in the background of the report.

Mind you, the latter might be preferable to the mindless drumming with which they insist on obscuring the very words we should be wanting to hear.

[Don Petter]

And talking of scons: was anyone else brought up with pikelets for tea? You bought them loose at the bakers so could ask for (as it was in our house) 12 or 15 or 18 &c. I deeply resent having to buy a prepacked packet of 6 "crumpets". I'd heard of crumpets when I was a child but didn't realise that they were what people from elsewhere, like London, called pikelets. In fact, I think oop no'th 'pikelets' are/were slightly bigger and thinner than ours, and that might be the technical distinction. We called them pikelets anyroad, and so did everyone else.

ff,

I've read the above several times and I'm still not sure what your crumpets or your pikelets look like.

My upbringing was in Southern Hampshire, with parents from Portsmouth and Chichester, and our pikelets were made at home, with batter dropped on to a hot surface (i.e drop scones). Crumpets were, and are, things you buy in a shop, half an inch thick and full of holes, and then toast in front of the fire.

[Nick Armstrong]

I always get annoyed at every accident having to be an 'earlier' one. Surely they are all by definition earlier, unless we are able to hear the sqealing of tyres in the background of the report.

that's a very good point, well made

On the pikelet / crumpet question - yes, I recall from sojourns at Yorkshire grandparents' that pikelets are similar (one brown smooth side, the other pitted with holes) but about half the thickness of your standard 'pack of six' crumpet, and maybe wider by half and inch or so. Melted butter and honey running into all the little holes... Yum yum yum...

[Ferretfancy]

Eine Alpensinfonie,

If I remember correctly, the D'Oyley Carte chorus seem a bit confused about this on their recording!

Iolanthe is still relevant,

Throughout the years
The House of Peers
Did nothing in particular,
And did it very well!