Pronunciation watch

[Honoured Guest]

Doesn't a "soft c" sound just the same as "s"? Modern Welsh spelling is phonetic so "c" is hard and "s" is soft, (and "si" is pronounced "sh", etc.).

[Pabmusic]

Doesn't a "soft c" sound just the same as "s"? Modern Welsh spelling is phonetic so "c" is hard and "s" is soft, (and "si" is pronounced "sh", etc.).

You're right. But history doesn't 'refresh' language. In French, C is soft ('S', sort of). We have just got used to something that was new in - say - 1200. Before that it would have been hard (we didn't know K).

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

You're right. But history doesn't 'refresh' language. In French, C is soft ('S', sort of).

The French "c" is rather like the English one, hard when followed by "a", "o" or "u" unless accompanied by a cedilla.

[Sir Velo]

You're right. But history doesn't 'refresh' language. In French, C is soft ('S', sort of).

In French, the letter "c" is generally pronounced according to how its modified by the subsequent letter. When followed by "a","o" or "u" or a consonant, it is hard. A cedilla is frequently added to indicate soft c pronunciation (generally only after "e" or "i").

Message crossed! I see Eine had the same thoughts. Great minds etc...

[mercia]

there's a village (and castle and observatory) near here called Herstmonceux and I pronounce the ceux as sir but I'm told it should be soo

[jean]

The Ancient Greek kappa would have represented a k sound. In Classical Latin the equivalent was a c. But as the post-Classical pronunciations of Latin developed, the c began to be pronounced like s in some contexts, and the connexion with the original Greek sound was lost.

You see the same problem with the Greek chi, which would have been a sort of aspirated k, but when Latinised looks like our very own ch.

So we say schedule, and tut when Americans pronounce it skedule. But we shouldn't really.

[LeMartinPecheur]

So we say schedule, and tut when Americans pronounce it skedule. But we shouldn't really.

Jean: do you think maybe we English all said 'skedule' at the time of the Pilgrim Fathers, so that the current 'trans-pond-tine' split you highlight might be another example of modern American still managing to retain earlier 'proper-English' forms? (Like 'gotten' for example.)

[LeMartinPecheur]

there's a village (and castle and observatory) near here called Herstmonceux and I pronounce the ceux as sir but I'm told it should be soo

Don't start me on Cornwall where Doublebois (still so spelt) is 'Double-boys' and 'Beau Repere' (several examples) is now spelt Barripper or Berepper, with the first vowel in danger of complete loss (Breppa/Brippa).

Still, starting in as I did in Hampshire, Beaulieu/ Byoolee had me well prepared

[Lento]

Somebody on R3 yesterday (Katie Derham maybe) pronounced "pathos" as in "pathetic" (pathoss) rather than "paythoss". I wonder which is more common, I have heard both now.

[Honoured Guest]

Have you also heard "pathos" pronounced as in "pathétique"?

[Don Petter]

Somebody on R3 yesterday (Katie Derham maybe) pronounced "pathos" as in "pathetic" (pathoss) rather than "paythoss". I wonder which is more common, I have heard both now.

I've already reported hearing this, but no-one replied to my observation.

(See my post #709 of yesterday.)

I've never heard her version before, and on checking various reference sources (including Chambers), find they only give the 'pay' pronunciation.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Have you also heard "pathos" pronounced as in "pathétique"?

Were you bullied at school?

[Honoured Guest]

Were you bullied at school?

There may have been some incidences but I developed good deflexion techniques, so hard to tell for sure.

[Stanfordian]

I was wondering if the word 'been' should be pronounced 'bin' or 'bean'? Saying 'bin' seems to be the trend on BBC radio these days.

[jean]

Bin used to be the RP pronunciation - but there's no 'should' about it!

Q: For years, I’ve wondered about the origin of the American pronunciation of “been” as BIN. Do you have any historical information on this unique pronunciation of the word that British speakers pronounce as BEAN?

A: Most Americans pronounce “been” as BIN or BEN. Most speakers of British English now say BEAN, but this was not always the case.

In the past, “been” was pronounced as BIN (and probably BEN) in Britain too.

We checked an old edition of John Walker’s A Critical Pronouncing Dictionary and Expositor of the English Language, published in London in 1791, and found that the usual British pronunciation of “been” at that time was BIN.

In his entry for “been,” Walker writes: “It is scarcely ever heard otherwise than as the noun bin, a repository for corn or wine.”

In English Spelling and Spelling Reform (1909), Thomas R. Lounsbury, a professor of English at Yale, writes that British speakers in the 19th century began pronouncing “been” as BEAN primarily because of the word’s spelling.

“There is little question—there is, indeed, no question—that at the beginning of the nineteenth century, and even much later, the digraph ee in this word had in cultivated speech the sound of short i,” Lounsbury says...

He adds that the pronunciation of “been” to rhyme with “seen” was sometimes heard, but “it was then so limited in use that orthoepists hardly thought it worth while to recognize its existence.” ...