Pronunciation watch

[kernelbogey]

....There is no such thing as a kilOMMetre!....

I believe linguists call this change in emphasis something like 'forward migration of stress' and, I believe, it is influenced by N American pronunciation, in which stress tends to come on earlier rather than later syllables. I can't think of an example right now, so maybe others will. British English and N American English have been slugging it out for domination on the world stage for some years. It will be interesting to see the effect on this of the millions in China learning English. British pronunciation may still hold some cachet - but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[vinteuil]

Did the French help us, via "aumones" and was an almoner another evolutionary stage?

Mikerotheatrenestr0y - your #86 -I don’t have my Etymological Dictionary with me, but from the OED:

from: Old English aelmysse, oblique cases aelmyssan, cognate with Old Norse almusa (Danish almisse, Swedish almosa), Old Frisian ielmisse, Old Saxon alamosna, Old High German alamuosan (Middle High German almuosen, modern German almosen), pointing to a common Old Teutonic *alemosna or *alemosina, [cf eleemosynary, adapted from Mediaeval Latin eleëmosynarius, from eleëmosyna] after popular Latin *alimosina (whence Portuguese and Old Spanish almosna, Old French almosne, Italian limosina), a perversion (due perhaps to sense-association with alimonia) of elimosina, elemosina, originally eleëmosina (Tertullian, 3rd century), adapted from Greek elemosini, compassionateness (noun of quality from eleimon, compassionate, from eleos, compassion, mercy).

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

"Agen" is Standard American pronunciation; "again" sounds affected to my ears unless used by someone from the green and pleasant land. I realize that American pronunciation, as well as spelling and vocabulary, is considered somewhat debased over on the other side.

It isn't considered "debased" so much as wrong. If Noah Webster wanted to change all those spellings and grammar (which is a bit like driving on the right, just to be difficult) he should havechanged the name of the language too, calling it "American". Then he could have said "different than" instead of "different from" to his heart's content.

[Mary Chambers]

I can't think of an example right now

Do you mean 'I can't think of an example at the moment' ?

[vinteuil]

Question: agAYN or agEN? And, if it's a rhyme word, shouldn't you pronounce it to rhyme, whichever way is appropriate? .

surely it depends on the context - and particularly in the case of poetry. Consider Wordsworth's repeated use of the word at the beginning of Tintern Abbey - I wd suggest the diction and metre call out for a stressed agAYN where I have put it in bold, unstressed Ag-en where in italic -

"FIVE years have past; five summers, with the length
Of five long winters! and again I hear
These waters, rolling from their mountain-springs
With a soft inland murmur.--Once again
Do I behold these steep and lofty cliffs,
That on a wild secluded scene impress
Thoughts of more deep seclusion; and connect
The landscape with the quiet of the sky.
The day is come when I again repose
Here, under this dark sycamore, and view
These plots of cottage-ground, these orchard-tufts,
Which at this season, with their unripe fruits,
Are clad in one green hue, and lose themselves
'Mid groves and copses. Once again I see
These hedge-rows, hardly hedge-rows, little lines
Of sportive wood run wild: these pastoral farms,
Green to the very door; and wreaths of smoke
Sent up, in silence, from among the trees!

[vinteuil]

... I feel Fowler's toleration of certain solecisms in the name of anti-pedantry opened the door to some dangerous sloppiness, e.g. the disinterested/uninterested muddle. .

mikerotheatrenestr0y - did Fowler ever countenance the misuse of 'disinterested' for 'uninterested'? - It would seem most unlike him. He was agin what he saw as superstitious and fallacious pedantry - but he was a stickler for precision and respect for traditional, historical, usage. Can you provide details as to where he 'approved' of the "disinterested/uninterested muddle"?

[Mary Chambers]

I don't think I ever say 'agayn'. It's always 'agen'. Both pronunciations are given in my OED.

At Prime Minister's Questions today Cameron repeatedly referred to 'lye-bries'.

[french frank]

Do you mean 'I can't think of an example at the moment' ?

That's a bit like 'any time soon' where I would say 'in the near future'. People don't know they're doing it!

[mikerotheatrenestr0y]

mikerotheatrenestr0y - did Fowler ever countenance the misuse of 'disinterested' for 'uninterested'? - It would seem most unlike him. He was agin what he saw as superstitious and fallacious pedantry - but he was a stickler for precision and respect for traditional, historical, usage. Can you provide details as to where he 'approved' of the "disinterested/uninterested muddle"?

I'm sure he didn't. But since I believe in different from, for the reason he dismisses as unjustified generalisation [but which I see as a logical continuation of the linguistic structure, just as in German the preposition you use with the verb is the same one you use with the noun - why wouldn't it be?] I am suggesting [unwarrantedly, but in the Ciceronian generalised mudslinging way] that the "anything goes" school may have pointed to Fowler's attacks on some forms of pedantry as a justification for dismissing ALL its manifestations.

And while we're at it, can I consign to the flames as sophistry and illusion a "report into", and restrict to American usage the prepositionless "protest" and "appeal"?

[mikerotheatrenestr0y]

Thank you, vinteuil, for that sensitive exposition of again and agen in context. But I was going to argue that WW was a Cumbrian, and ask whether anyone knew about C18 educated Cumbrian pronunciation. However, I now see that he was sent to school in Lancashire, and then went to my own university, so the whole picture is much more complicated than it would be with someone like John Clare. [Though Goethe still retained his Frankfurt dialect, as is proved by particular rhymes in the first version of Faust, and Schiller stayed more or less Swabian.]

[mikerotheatrenestr0y]

I should really call this "Continental Capers", inasmuch as driving on the right is, as far as I know, a Napoleonic device to upset traditional armies, adopted deliberately, I assume, by the country that summoned a Continental Congress. Never having been conquered by the Corsican, unlike everywhere else [except, of course, Sweden] we British continue to pass one another sword-arm to sword-arm, in order to protect the fair damsel on our left-hand side. [Let's ignore the Armstrongs of the Borders, who, with a genetic preponderance of southpaws, constructed their peel towers with spiral staircases that turned the wrong way so that they had the advantage in sword-fighting.]

[vinteuil]

Yes - sword arm to sword arm. Also, from my horse-riding days - ain't it customary to mount one's horse from its left side? So, if you're standing on the pavement, the horse will be pointing to the left - on you hop - off you go -on the left side of the carriage-way... obvious really. Yep, it's that corsican's fault - and then the Americans - Lafayette and all that - wanting to chummy up to their fellow revolutionaries - adopted the frenchified ways...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

1.There is no such thing as a kilOMMetre!

I never use the word. There's nothing like a good old mile. Or 0.621 of a mile if you want Napoleon's measurement.

[kernelbogey]

Do you mean 'I can't think of an example at the moment' ?

That's a bit like 'any time soon' where I would say 'in the near future'. People don't know they're doing it!

You're right in this instance, Mary, that I was unaware of writing 'right now' (= 'Americanism') rather than 'at this moment' (= 'British usage'). However my choice of two words totalling eight letters in preference to three words and twelve letters might be considered superior in terms of keyboard strokes and visual efficiency.

But French Frank's imputation that 'I don't know [I'm] doing it', which you were so bold as to emphasise (note anglicised s not z), is mistaken, as I generally take care over my language. As it happens I've mulled a lot recently on the usage 'any time soon', and I think it does carry a slightly different connotation from 'in the near future'. Having said that, American usage has a tendency to use more words rather than fewer, and I believe that one reason that educated speakers of British English - think Stephen Fry, Tony Blair or the actor Simon Callow - are venerated in the US is that they speak in concisely phrased whole sentences, not generally a characteristic, I suggest, of American English. (The President does, but with more rhetorical flourish than most British politicians.)

Anyway, Mary, I say 'right now', you say 'at the moment': let's call the whole thing off!

BW, kb

[french frank]

But French Frank's imputation that 'I don't know [I'm] doing it', which you were so bold as to emphasise (note anglicised s not z), is mistaken

My apols, kernel. Nothing personal intended. It was my generalisation that people use words and phrases which they hear frequently, Americanisms in films, television shows, news reports &c. and adopt them, in most cases, without thinking whether they are phrases they have used all their lives or ones which have recently entered their consciousness. I unreservedly remove you from that generalisation