Pronunciation watch

[Deckerd]

Much of what is being discussed would be more appropriate inPedants' Paradise. So to keep us on the pronunciation topic, may I return to the three recordings of Elgar's oratorio The Apostles?
It concerns the pronunciation of "Hebron", which was "Heebron" in the Boult recording, but "Hebbron" in both Hickox and Elder versions. The latter is the pronunciation used by the BBC news team, and may be the way it is pronounced in the modern town, but I understand the former was more common before the creation of the state of Israel after WWII.

This is to do with Old English and subsequent accretions. Basically, if you're a traditionalist you will put the stress on the first syllable but make it short; thus 'hebbron', or you are a parvenu and will put a post-GVS twist on it and make it long: hibron (heebron in modern orthography). Both are equally wanky since English is the most absorbent language on Earth

[JFLL]

Getting back to pronunciations, how do people pronounce the following?

1. margarine
2. vitamin

I was brought up to say "marjareen" and "vittamin"' both of which I now understand to be incorrect.

Do the grand people who say 'margarine' with a hard 'g' also say 'marg' with a hard 'g' rather than 'mardge'? Or are they too grand even to abbreviate it? Or use it? Come on, I know we've got some really grand people (in both senses) on this forum.

[mangerton]

I was brought up like EA in this instance at least.

I think the "g" should be hard, as it's before an "a", so therefore margareen

I think the "i" in vitamin should be long, as in "vital", which is how the Americans tend to pronounce it.

At breakfast and tea at school, we always called it "marj".

[gurnemanz]

I think the "i" in vitamin should be long, as in "vital", which is how the Americans tend to pronounce it.

But most British people seem to favour the short "i". Likewise, "dynasty", "simultaneous", "advertisement".

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

But that doesn't stop David Cameron saying "ae" when he means "a". and in the examples quoted, the alternative is often the Americans trying to be different.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think the "g" should be hard, as it's before an "a", so therefore margareen

As pronounced by the wonderful Michael Barratt on Nationwide in the early '70s.

I think the "i" in vitamin should be long, as in "vital", which is how the Americans tend to pronounce it.

I think that this was how the word was originally pronounced by its coiner: "Vitamine" (rather like "Thiamine").

But, apart from a rebellious phase in my teens when I emulated MrBarratt's example, I've always followed Alpie's pronunciation. (Except that I don't think I've ever said the word "margerine" in over twenty years!)

[gurnemanz]

Strangely enough, as I listen to the interval chat in the Met Rigoletti, a woman (British) has just pronounced "risible" as in "rise". This is surely an error rather than an optional alternative, both here and in US.

[JFLL]

Eine Alpensinfonie wrote:
Much of what is being discussed would be more appropriate inPedants' Paradise. So to keep us on the pronunciation topic, may I return to the three recordings of Elgar's oratorio The Apostles?
It concerns the pronunciation of "Hebron", which was "Heebron" in the Boult recording, but "Hebbron" in both Hickox and Elder versions. The latter is the pronunciation used by the BBC news team, and may be the way it is pronounced in the modern town, but I understand the former was more common before the creation of the state of Israel after WWII.

This is to do with Old English and subsequent accretions. Basically, if you're a traditionalist you will put the stress on the first syllable but make it short; thus 'hebbron', or you are a parvenu and will put a post-GVS twist on it and make it long: hibron (heebron in modern orthography). Both are equally wanky since English is the most absorbent language on Earth.

But compare the word ‘Hebrew’, which has a long ‘ee’ [i:]. This must I think have had a long [e:] (roughly ‘ay’) in Middle English to have undergone the late Middle English/early Modern English change of [e:] to [i:] (Great Vowel Shift). So the pronunciation ‘Heebron’ [hi:bron] could well be traditionally ‘correct’ in Modern English, though possibly 'Hebron' with a short 'e' is more like the Modern Hebrew pronunciation.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I've been looking into this, and it appears that "Heebron" is correct. The other way may well be another BBC pronunciation error, that has filtered throughout to the Hickox and Elder recordings of The Apostles.

[Vile Consort]

Has anyone else heard the story that the BBC pronunciation committee set up by Reith in the early days discussed whether "cinema" should be pronounced as we pronounce it today or kye-nee-ma? Presumably both pronunciations must have been current in the 1920's, the latter, I imagine, more popular among classical scholars.

[mangerton]

Strangely enough, as I listen to the interval chat in the Met Rigoletti, a woman (British) has just pronounced "risible" as in "rise". This is surely an error rather than an optional alternative, both here and in US.

I should have thought that was a ridiculous (same root) error.

[jean]

Why are the BBC pronouncing him Beppe Greeeeeo?

[Flosshilde]

Though do we ever talk about Verdi's Othello?

Well, if we say that we're going to see 'Otello' it's clear that we're seeing the opera, not the play, & saying "Verdi's Othello" isn't accurate, as he didn't write anything called 'Othello'.

(What do italians say when they talk about Shakespeare's play?)

[french frank]

(What do italians say when they talk about Shakespeare's play?)

I don't know, but last time I was in Verona, they were advertising 'La Bisbetica domata' in the arena.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Ian Botham.

The BBC has always pronounced his name "Boatham", but the normal pronunciation in the East Midlands has a short "o" and a soft "th". Furthermore, his fellow players called him "Both" (rhyming with "goth".