Pronunciation watch

[jean]

My mother's family in Ireland used to call it a motor-house.

[JFLL]

... we seem to have retained the French -age pronunciation for mirage - persiflage - camouflage - barrage - fuselage.

For me garage still has three pronunciations -

ga-'RAZH

'GA - razh

'GA - ridge

I grew up with the first. It now sounds too lordly by half, and I certainly wdn't use it when considering taking a bus to its terminus at Willesden Garage - that wd definitely be GA-ridge. But in the comfort of my own home...

My parents used a fourth form 'GA-rahdge, which, they being middle class (rather Alan Bennett-ish middle-class) , I suppose they thought was a middle course between the lordly ga-'RAZH and 'GA - ridge, which they regarded, I think, as plebeian. My mother was most indignant when she heard a newsreader (I think it was Martin Lewis) say 'GA - ridge.

[AuntyKezia]

I'm intrigued by the way some English speakers pronounce Hermitage, as in St Petersburg: sounding the initial 'h' but then giving the final syllable more of a French pronunciation, 'ahzh'. (I don't know how the Russians say it...)

[Pabmusic]

I'm intrigued by the way some English speakers pronounce Hermitage, as in St Petersburg: sounding the initial 'h' but then giving the final syllable more of a French pronunciation, 'ahzh'. (I don't know how the Russians say it...)

There's a second point you (perhaps unintentionally) raise, and that involves former French words beginning with H that we've adopted into English. When first welcomed into English, these would have been pronounced very much as in French (at least as far as English pronunciation would allow) and the initial H would have been silent. We still have the silent H in hour and honour (and others). But over time, we began to pronounce the initial H in many of them (hospital, history, horrible).

Some of these pronunciation changes happened within the last century or so and we sometimes display our uncertainty by using 'an' wrongly. You occasionally hear things like "it's an horrific story", although the H is fully pronounced. Some people think it's quite posh to do this, but it's only a usage left over from the recent time when we would have said "it's an 'orrific story".

Americans pronounce herb as 'erb (presumably the older form), where we now pronounce the H.

[mercia]

interesting stuff [as always] pab - I remember Robert Robinson, off the TV and radio, used to say an 'otel, not pronouncing the H
not sure of the "correctness" or otherwise of this ????? - [he also used to pronounce golf as goff]

I think I say "an horrific" - misplaced aspirations to poshness obviously

[Pabmusic]

interesting stuff [as always] pab

I remember Robert Robinson, off the TV and radio, used to say an 'otel, not pronouncing the H

not sure of the "correctness" or otherwise of this ?????

he also used to pronounce golf as goff

I think I say "an horrific" - aspirations to poshness obviously

I'm sure "an 'otel" would have been acceptable before WW1, maybe even until the 50s in some circles (I can't imagine Harold Macmillan pronouncing the H). The true mispronunciation, though, would be to adopt the pretentious (and completely wrong) "an hotel", with the H sounded. It's done quite often.

[vinteuil]

I'm sure "an 'otel" would have been acceptable before WW1, maybe even until the 50s in some circles .

... thank you for your - provisional - permission for my use of my native tongue.

I have always said "an otel" and still do. It is the common practice among my friends.

There has also been debate as to whether to use an before a word beginning with h when the stress is not on the first syllable. Historically this was the case ; Fowler thinks this to be pedantic. But some people say that it should be -

a history

but

an historical approach.

[JFLL]

There's a second point you (perhaps unintentionally) raise, and that involves former French words beginning with H that we've adopted into English. When first welcomed into English, these would have been pronounced very much as in French (at least as far as English pronunciation would allow) and the initial H would have been silent. We still have the silent H in hour and honour (and others). But over time, we began to pronounce the initial H in many of them (hospital, history, horrible).

Some of these pronunciation changes happened within the last century or so and we sometimes display our uncertainty by using 'an' wrongly. You occasionally hear things like "it's an horrific story", although the H is fully pronounced. Some people think it's quite posh to do this, but it's only a usage left over from the recent time when we would have said "it's an 'orrific story".

Americans pronounce herb as 'erb (presumably the older form), where we now pronounce the H.

I get the impression that using ‘an’ rather than ‘a’ before words beginning with ‘h’ in which the ‘h’ has usually been pronounced in Modern English, such as ‘horrific’, has become more common in recent years, at least in writing. I wonder if it’s partly because people were once told that saying ‘an (h)otel’ was ‘U’, as opposed to non-U ‘a hotel’, and they’ve over-generalized the use of ‘an’ before words which, unlike ‘hotel’, don’t have an optional ‘h’, at least in Standard (RP) English. ‘An horrific …’ seems to me a bit precious, unless you habitually say ‘an ‘orrific …’, but that may just be a personal impression.

The Russians say ‘Ermi-TAZH’, by the way – it was a loan-word into Russian from French. The English pronunciation ‘Hermi-TAZH’ for the museum seems to be a sort of compromise between English ‘HER-mitidge’ and the Russian form.

[mercia]

just been thinking why I might say "an horrific" pronouncing the h

neither the word a or the sound h use the tongue, so adding the n to make an [employing the tongue] I think helps separate the two words [in speech]

[an 'orrific sounds like one word anoriffic] - a horrific requires a conscious effort to separate the words [there's probably a technical word for that]

that's my newly made-up theory anyway

[Pabmusic]

... thank you for your - provisional - permission for my use of my native tongue.

I have always said "an otel" and still do. It is the common practice among my friends.

There has also been debate as to whether to use an before a word beginning with h when the stress is not on the first syllable. Historically this was the case ; Fowler thinks this to be pedantic. But some people say that it should be -

a history

but

an historical approach.

Hmm. The trouble with posting anything about language is that you'll probably offend someone . In this case, you may be overlooking the fact that words beginning with H in an unstressed syllable most often had come originally from French, and any ingrained tendency to use 'an' would just as likely reflect a former mute H, rather than a later 'compromise ' pronunciation. The fact that some authorities support it may be as much a rationalisation of the status quo as anything else.

It is not for me to give you - or anyone - permission to do or refrain from doing anything. You will continue to pronounce things as you always have done, and what you do will be neither right nor wrong, since there are not really any absolutes in this area. But I think it is interesting to understand why things are as they are.

As for me, I prefer "an historical approach", too, although I'd prefer it were pronounced "an 'istorical approach".

[vinteuil]

I'm sure "an 'otel" would have been acceptable before WW1, maybe even until the 50s in some circles

It is not for me to give you - or anyone - permission to do or refrain from doing anything. .

I think your choice of word - "acceptable" - was perhaps unfortunate.

[amateur51]

I think your choice of word - "acceptable" - was perhaps unfortunate.

I agree vints but where do you stand on unique? - "an unique contribution to College life"?

[vinteuil]

I agree vints but where do you stand on unique? - "an unique contribution to College life"?

... Ammy : that's (I think) a simpler matter - as Fowler says - " A is now usual before vowels preceded in fact though not in appearance by the sound of y or w ( a unit, a eulogy, a one)."

[amateur51]

... Ammy : that's (I think) a simpler matter - as Fowler says - " A is now usual before vowels preceded in fact though not in appearance by the sound of y or w ( a unit, a eulogy, a one)."

Good to have my suspicions and natural usage confirmed, vints

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

... thank you for your - provisional - permission for my use of my native tongue.

I have always said "an otel" and still do. It is the common practice among my friends.

There has also been debate as to whether to use an before a word beginning with h when the stress is not on the first syllable. Historically this was the case ; Fowler thinks this to be pedantic. But some people say that it should be -

a history

but

an historical approach.

I've always thought this to be rather silly.