Pronunciation watch

[Lateralthinking1]

But it is pronounced differently in Kent.

To rhyme with "high" I think? Not sure where it is though.

[mangerton]

Careful, amsey, too much of this unfamiliar familiarity is bound to breed contempt ...

Yes, I had forgotten about Broon and his constituency is often mispronounced in the House of Commons as well ..

scotty, do you remember the football results, when they got in amongst Forfar and Brechin?

Then there's this, from the great Scotland The What, which illustrates the point quite well.

[subcontrabass]

To rhyme with "high" I think? Not sure where it is though.

Correct on pronunciation. The old spelling of the name is apparently "Lyghe". It is near Tonbridge.

[scottycelt]

Yes, a fair point, but one member of my family who will not be named came unstuck in Yorkshire.

"We are lost, is this Keeley?"

"Sorry love, where do you want to go?"

"Keeley"

"I don't know about that but this is Keighley if that helps."

It all depends on what you know. Rugby fans - and carpet enthusiasts - wouldn't have had a problem.

And it is probably good news both sides of the border that Leigh isn't pronounced Leith.

Yes, I accept all of that .. for myself I wouldn't have had a clue how to correctly pronounce Stiffkey.

My point really was that we might expect something better from BBC commentators and presenters when it comes to well-known towns like Kirkcaldy.

I'm sure it would never have occurred in Lord Reith's day ...

[scottycelt]

scotty, do you remember the football results, when they got in amongst Forfar and Brechin?

Then there's this, from the great Scotland The What, which illustrates the point quite well.

A classic, mangerton ...

[Lateralthinking1]

scotty, do you remember the football results, when they got in amongst Forfar and Brechin?

Then there's this, from the great Scotland The What, which illustrates the point quite well.

That is brilliant - and very funny. I was obviously behind the audience on some of the difficult spellings they understood but I got the point. The confusion the English have with the "Z" words in Scotland could easily have been sorted out overnight had John Menzies been more honest in their advertising in the 1970s. They chose a different pronunciation to sell more products dahn south.

Correct on pronunciation. The old spelling of the name is apparently "Lyghe". It is near Tonbridge.

Thank you scb for the location. A further case in point - the Gillinghams. Another banana skin in East Anglia as is its way.

I would say (as a phonetician, rather than a Welsh speaker) Bann-gore.

I tend to remember the hard G but tail off into an "er". I've never lived in Wales but communication questions do arise when living in a different area from one's original home. I remember when I became a student in York, and had friends from the North there, that hesitation would suddenly occur ahead of certain place names. There was a question and it required a solution.

Saying "Doncarster", "Newcarstle", etc felt ridiculous. However, to go the whole way and attempt an authentic northern pronunciation sounded affected or mocking. The answer was to find a middle way with some words - "Doncarster" did not become "Doncasster" but "Donnncaster" with the accent on the "Don" and the "a" part very clipped. That's in my language even today.

"Newcastle" was different. They accentuate the middle syllable so much. Generally I then did the same although when south I reverted to the southern way. It is "Newcarstle" again now but once you've been there, it seems wrong. It isn't its proper name.

[french frank]

A classic, mangerton ...

Ah! the great Scotland the What team and the Doric! I love the one about Sandy the alleged stationmaster at Cambus o' May. "But (objection), the station at Cambus o' May was closed years ago."

(Amazement) " Will ... naebody's niver tellt Sondy naehing aboot et."

or in the Garden of Eden:

And the Lord said unto Adam, "Fit like Adam?" And Adam said to the Lord, "Oh, nae bawd, Lord, foo's yersel?

But perhaps you have to be there

[JFLL]

I would say (as a phonetician, rather than a Welsh speaker) Bann-gore.

Yes, ['baŋgor] not ['baŋə].

[mangerton]

Ah! the great Scotland the What team and the Doric! I love the one about Sandy the alleged stationmaster at Cambus o' May. "But (objection), the station at Cambus o' May was closed years ago."

(Amazement) " Will ... naebody's niver tellt Sondy naehing aboot et."

or in the Garden of Eden:

And the Lord said unto Adam, "Fit like Adam?" And Adam said to the Lord, "Oh, nae bawd, Lord, foo's yersel?

But perhaps you have to be there

Glad you liked them ff. (and great to see you back, too!) There's quite a bit more on youtube. The "Mastermind" sketch stands out in my memory.

[mangerton]

The confusion the English have with the "Z" words in Scotland could easily have been sorted out overnight had John Menzies been more honest in their advertising in the 1970s. They chose a different pronunciation to sell more products dahn south.

Yes, quite a number of Scots, including me, felt that Menzies did the wrong thing when these adverts started. Their name is now frequently mispronounced in Scotland also.

[Pabmusic]

Yes, quite a number of Scots, including me, felt that Menzies did the wrong thing when these adverts started. Their name is now frequently mispronounced in Scotland also.

I was taken to task over this as long ago as 1975, when I first visited Scotland; I never forgot it.

My Penguin Dictionary of Surnames (1967) says it's a version of Manners (which is Old French, from Mesnières - servants or inhabitants of a manor, and a place in Seine-Maritime). Of Menzies, it says:

"Scots form of Manners; the -z- represents the obsolete [Old English] letter yogh (shaped like a ℨ and sounding like gh), and the name is correctly pronounced Mingis."

It's probably another example of the Scots preserving AS pronunciations longer and better than the English.

[edit]

It occurs to me that the most exposure I had in my early years to the name Menzies was not John Menzies, but Sir Robert Menzies, who was Prime Minister of Australia many times from WW2 to the mid-60s. He was always referred to in the English way - perhaps that's how he pronounced it - so when John Menzies began appearing in England in the 1970s there had already been a precedent.

[scottycelt]

Ah! the great Scotland the What team and the Doric! I love the one about Sandy the alleged stationmaster at Cambus o' May. "But (objection), the station at Cambus o' May was closed years ago."

(Amazement) " Will ... naebody's niver tellt Sondy naehing aboot et."

or in the Garden of Eden:

And the Lord said unto Adam, "Fit like Adam?" And Adam said to the Lord, "Oh, nae bawd, Lord, foo's yersel?

But perhaps you have to be there

Or, perhaps, be 'blessed' with two Aberdonian parents when growing up ...

In some ways the Doric has much in common with the Geordie dialect further south.

I almost felt quite at home when I spent a year in Newcastle!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I'm sure Halford's mispronounce their name on purpose too.

[Lateralthinking1]

I'm sure Halford's mispronounce their name on purpose too.

Oh yes. I think that is probably right. There is also the strange phenomenon of adding an "s" to store names and yet not in every case. Woolworth became Woolworths and Tesco is nearly always Tescos. As for Waitrose, ASDA and Lidl, it isn't automatic.

I was taken to task over this as long ago as 1975, when I first visited Scotland; I never forgot it................It occurs to me that the most exposure I had in my early years to the name Menzies was not John Menzies, but Sir Robert Menzies, who was Prime Minister of Australia many times from WW2 to the mid-60s. He was always referred to in the English way - perhaps that's how he pronounced it - so when John Menzies began appearing in England in the 1970s there had already been a precedent.

The point about Sir Robert is well-made. 1975 is very probably the year that it happened to me - a friend's mother who was Scottish. It is likely, as mangerton suggests, that JM's advertising had created dialogue/disgruntlement north of the border.

That was when things could have been sorted out but they retained the "modernised" English. Complicated names do not help sales. WH Smith were closely linked to John Menzies, if not at the time then soon after so that too could have been a factor.

The multicultural Britain in 2013 with its Polish and Indian names probably provides more scope for regional understanding. It is just possible that they could use the proper pronunciation today but it would still require clever advertising to be successful.

Footnote - Have just discovered they are half heartedly giving it a go - http://web.archive.org/web/200709301...nunciation.php

[french frank]

Re Halfordos, do you say fall-con (as in fall) or fal-con (as in pal)?

And what about tooth and room - tuhth or toooooooth? ruhm or rooooom?

Is that RP or regional? I don't know.