Pronunciation watch

[french frank]

Maybe, but it can be very interesting.

Yes, the general aim is not to 'correct' the pronunciation but to draw attention to 'unusual' pronunciations in particular contexts. That includes 'idiosyncratic' pronunciations by BBC announcers. Or changes in how young people speak compared with their elders - of linguistic interest not pedagogical prescription.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I am late to this party, so I'm sure someone has mentioned this before, but surely pronunciation (like words and their meanings) changes over time and according to geographical location. When I was young, posh people pronounced 'house' as 'hice.' In Glasgow they say 'hoos'. Shakespeare would have used a markedly different pronunciation to the one pedants deem as 'correct' these days. Listen to recordings of such as E.M Forster and others of his era and the pronunciation sounds peculiar to our contemporary ears. If one can readily understand a word, however it is spoken, then I can't see the problem In short, I think this entire thread is peculiar.

Absolutely right Lennie Henry’s slight Wolverhampton accent as Othello was probably closer to Shakespeare’s (down the road in Stratford on Avon) than Olivier’s . Though arguably Paul Robeson’s or Orson Welles’s American accent would have been closer. When you hear an approximation of 16th Century English speech it’s very different. There was no RP in Shakespeare’s day - all his company would have had regional accents - some of them very broad with the sort of vowel sounds we still hear in the West Country , Midlands , Suffolk (rare now the Suffolk accent sadly a bit like South African / Australian ) and Yorkshire.

[french frank]

Absolutely right Lennie Henry’s slight Wolverhampton accent as Othello was probably closer to Shakespeare’s (down the road in Stratford on Avon) than Olivier’s . Though arguably Paul Robeson’s or Orson Welles’s American accent would have been closer. When you hear an approximation of 16th Century English speech it’s very different. There was no RP in Shakespeare’s day - all his company would have had regional accents - some of them very broad with the sort of vowel sounds we still hear in the West Country , Midlands , Suffolk (rare now the Suffolk accent sadly a bit like South African / Australian ) and Yorkshire.

The point about this, as wih regional accents, is that they are generally uniform in any one individual's speech. I do recall the goalkeeper Bert Trautmann speaking with a German-Mancunian accent but that in itself wouldn't be thought a feature for correction. Though I would see no harm in commenting on it since it's no sort of criticism.

[kernelbogey]

I vaguely remember a discussion years ago about RP when teaching English in Germany. Some elder Germans still spoke English with the RP accent which they had been taught in the 1930s.

If "man" is pronounced "men", how, someone asked, is the plural "men" pronounced? The answer was "min".

This pronunciation still seems the norm among German speakers: I was recently thrown by being given an email address in which '@' was prononced 'et'.

[oddoneout]

When it comes to sung pronunciation is there not the added element of vowels being altered to avoid distortion to the sound, and also style convention in for instance sung French?
A recent close listen to a German recording of JSB BWV4 in preparation for a concert made me wonder about techniques used in other languages, presumably for the same purpose, as "der" and "den" were clearly pronounced as "deer" and "deen". Not just a quirk of that recording I think either, as a choir friend had noticed it on a different recording, also German I believe.

[gurnemanz]

When it comes to sung pronunciation is there not the added element of vowels being altered to avoid distortion to the sound, and also style convention in for instance sung French?
A recent close listen to a German recording of JSB BWV4 in preparation for a concert made me wonder about techniques used in other languages, presumably for the same purpose, as "der" and "den" were clearly pronounced as "deer" and "deen". Not just a quirk of that recording I think either, as a choir friend had noticed it on a different recording, also German I believe.

There is a helpful spelling rule in German by which, with very few exceptions, a vowel is long before a single consonant, as in 'den', and short before a double consonant, as in 'denn', meaning 'for' or 'because'. eg Denn alles Fleisch, es ist wie Gras.

[oddoneout]

There is a helpful spelling rule in German by which, with very few exceptions, a vowel is long before a single consonant, as in 'den', and short before a double consonant, as in 'denn', meaning 'for' or 'because'. eg Denn alles Fleisch, es ist wie Gras.

Yes I know how it is spoken, I was wondering about sung and whether, as in English, sung vowels are sometimes pronounced differently. If so are there common conventions or is it down to preference.

[gurnemanz]

I heard Matthew Syed earlier on Radio 4 refer to 'Amazon', stressed on the last syllable. Surely the standard British pronunciation is 'Aməzən', with unstressed vowels reducing to ə. I find this Americanisation slightly irritating. Likewise, 'marathon', as in a particularly tiresome current TV ad. Standard British would be 'marəthən'.

The same thing is happening with 'hurricane', whose last syllable is for me unstressed - 'hurricən', not Harry Kane.

[Bert Coules]

Quite right. Amazoneian but never Amazon. I've somehow missed the marathon ad and I don't believe I've ever encountered hurrikane.

[AuntDaisy]

Quite right. Amazoneian but never Amazon. I've somehow missed the marathon ad and I don't believe I've ever encountered hurrikane.

The nearest might be Lear's "You cataracts and hurricanoes, spout" (although they'd probably pronounce it "hurry canoes")

[Old Grumpy]

Likewise, 'marathon', as in a particularly tiresome current TV ad. Standard British would be 'marəthən'.

You must be watching catch up TV from the last century...


Marathon has been Snickers for years!

[Padraig]

There is a helpful spelling rule in German by which, with very few exceptions, a vowel is long before a single consonant, as in 'den', and short before a double consonant, as in 'denn', meaning 'for' or 'because'. eg Denn alles Fleisch, es ist wie Gras.

Interesting, gurnemanz. You may find it interesting that there is a similar 'rule' in Irish pronunciation regarding the letters v and w, which do not occur in written Irish. If you take the verb 'to be'(Ta), as an example the rule is quite clear: Ta, is the infinitive; an bhfuil, is present interrogative, and is pronounced 'an will', because 'u' is a broad vowel; bhi, is past tense, and is pronounced vee, because 'i' is a slender vowel.
Please note, vinteuil, that Siobhan seems to 'break the rule' as w and v are both allowed -Shuwawn and Shivawn.

[Serial_Apologist]

Standard British would be 'marəthən'.

If Reform ever got into government they'd being back the far more British Yorkie Bar, for sure.

[vinteuil]

If Reform ever got into government they'd being back the far more British Yorkie Bar, for sure.

the Yorkie Bar, made by -

Nestlé S.A. a Swiss multinational food and drink processing conglomerate corporation headquartered in Vevey, Switzerland.
(not vevey british... )

Who was writing about the dictatorship of multinationals? ...

.

[Serial_Apologist]

the Yorkie Bar, made by -

Nestlé S.A. a Swiss multinational food and drink processing conglomerate corporation headquartered in Vevey, Switzerland.
(not vevey british... )

Who was writing about the dictatorship of multinationals? ...

.

Meeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!

I was being ironic on specifics, of course!