Pronunciation watch

[Alain Maréchal]

Citizen Kane addressed his business manager as Mister Bernsteen.

[jayne lee wilson]

... what was that about Awkward English first Syllable Stresses?




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More variable with words of 3 syllables or more...very often 2nd or 3rd.....(well not "syllables" itself, but).....but then why does Tuonela sound so odd... I don't think it is just (un)familiarity...
Something else going on there, in the vowel-music of the word, or....?
A lot easier to rhyme with Tuonela

[muzzer]

‘Steen’ vs ‘Stine’, this will run and run. My 10 cents (from the U.K.) is that Steen was adopted by migrants to the US in the late 19thC to “Ungerman” themselves and because it’s a simpler read. I’m willing to bet LB adopted Stine so as to expressly identify himself with the ‘ancestors’, broadly construed, for cultural reasons. Shall look it up later.

[LMcD]

‘Steen’ vs ‘Stine’, this will run and run. My 10 cents (from the U.K.) is that Steen was adopted by migrants to the US in the late 19thC to “Ungerman” themselves and because it’s a simpler read. I’m willing to bet LB adopted Stine so as to expressly identify himself with the ‘ancestors’, broadly construed, for cultural reasons. Shall look it up later.

Musician Bern'stine' and film producer Bern'steen'. And let's not forget Gene Wilder's insistence on being called FrankenSTEEN.

[MrGongGong]

An interviewed UK orchestral player pronounced him thus on air a few days ago. Did Lennie?

I'd always assumed the German vowel sound was correct, IIRCC that's the way he's usually said over here, and was preparing to throw something at the radio when I realised that the -steen pronunciation in similar names is common, maybe even standard, in the USA.

I always thought that UK trumpet players would refer to him as AH ?

[Judith Robbyns]

Jayne Lee Wilson: "More variable with words of 3 syllables or more...very often 2nd or 3rd.....(well not "syllables" itself, but).....but then why does Tuonela sound so odd... I don't think it is just (un)familiarity...
Something else going on there, in the vowel-music of the word, or....?
A lot easier to rhyme with Tuonela "

There's nothing 'unEnglish' (linguistically) about an initial-stressed trisyllable. We even move the stress forward where foreign equivalents have a more 'English-placed' stress.

Madeleine
Emily
Eleanor
Isabel

and if you want an easy musical rhyme

Pamela
Angela

Whether English 'decides' to opt for the English TuonELA will probably depend on how often it is given that pronunciation out of ignorance, how seldom it's pronounced in the Finnish way.

[Oakapple]

In Humphrey Burton's biography of LB (page 4) he says that it was the father Sam who insisted on the German pronunciation "stine" rather than "steen", which was Ukrainian.

[vinteuil]

... why does Tuonela sound so odd... I don't think it is just (un)familiarity...y:

... but I expect you have no problem with Tap - iola, and are not tempted to make it Tapi - o - la.

If Tap iola why the difficulty with Tu onela?

[muzzer]

In Humphrey Burton's biography of LB (page 4) he says that it was the father Sam who insisted on the German pronunciation "stine" rather than "steen", which was Ukrainian.

Thank you, that’s where I was going to look!

[vinteuil]

There's nothing 'unEnglish' (linguistically) about an initial-stressed trisyllable. We even move the stress forward where foreign equivalents have a more 'English-placed' stress.
Madeleine, Emily, Eleanor, Isabel

... and charlatan, souvenir, nonchalant.

But, as Fowler notes - "a stressed syllable followed by three unstressed ones is very unpopular except with professors & the like if there is an alternative handy" ['Modern English Usage', 1927 edn., article 'contumely' (with its five pronunciations).]

In the article 'recessive accent' there he discusses words such as deuteronomy, laboratory, disciplinary, hospitable, despicable, capitalist, gladiolus, contumacy, recriminatory with regard to the conflicting tendencies towards shifting the stress towards the beginning of the word (the stress on the middle moved to the initial for : aggrandize, recondite, obdurate, contrary, equerry, demonstrate) as against the 'repugnance to strings of obscure syllables'.

Me, I always insist that it is 'controversy. I understand that some of the younger generations are under the impression that con'troversy is acceptable.
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[Serial_Apologist]

... and charlatan, souvenir, nonchalant.

But, as Fowler notes - "a stressed syllable followed by three unstressed ones is very unpopular except with professors & the like if there is an alternative handy" ['Modern English Usage', 1927 edn., article 'contumely' (with its five pronunciations).]

In the article 'recessive accent' there he discusses words such as deuteronomy, laboratory, disciplinary, hospitable, despicable, capitalist, gladiolus, contumacy, recriminatory with regard to the conflicting tendencies towards shifting the stress towards the beginning of the word (the stress on the middle moved to the initial for : aggrandize, recondite, obdurate, contrary, equerry, demonstrate) as against the 'repugnance to strings of obscure syllables'.

Me, I always insist that it is 'controversy. I understand that some of the younger generations are under the impression that con'troversy is acceptable.
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Always controversy for my father (1908-2001), who insisted that everyone of his generation pronounced it thus, and that therefore it had to be be right. Accenting the first syllable does however make it difficult to avoid also accenting the third, or even put the main stress onto it - which, to my ears, sounds terrible: controVERsy?

[vinteuil]

Always controversy for my father (1908-2001), who insisted that everyone of his generation pronounced it thus, and that therefore it had to be be right.

... ah well, I merely follow my father [1916-1983] and mother [1913-2008] - for them, no controversy, it had to be controversy...

And, like your parents I think, both Londoners.

[Serial_Apologist]

... ah well, I merely follow my father [1916-1983] and mother [1913-2008] - for them, no controversy, it had to be controversy...

And, like your parents I think, both Londoners.

Crouch End in my father's case; Mum (1905-1985) actually came from Middlesbrough.

[muzzer]

Interesting. I’ve always stressed the second syllable in controversy, and believed stressing the first a recent errant import from the US. Londoner born and bred fwiw.

[vinteuil]

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... the only pronunciation provided in my 1933 OED is 'controversy.


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